The undefeated monster

[Theo R Cwithin]

Definitely depends on the campaign, as well as the game mechanics. In a 20 level chump-to-god D&D 3.5e game, I have a hard time even figuring out how to logically incorporate such a trope.

But I think it makes a lot of sense in a "flatter" low power E6 game in which, say, characters above 3rd level or so are very few and far between, but even 'epic' threats are potentially beaten with enough cleverness or force by low-levels. In that case it's easy to imagine an undefeated monster of 8th-10th level lurking somewhere; possibly with a fringe of minions or cultists to protect it, or lairing in a well-trapped, hidden, or very defendable place as a rationale for its long life.

As a player with metagame knowledge and the fiddly chargen system like 3e, I'd be inclined to wait till the 'epic' 6th level then take on the monster. With a quick'n'easy chargen like Basic, I might be more open to heading straight into the gaping maw of doom. As DM, I'd probably use similar considerations in figuring how many PCs to grind up in taking on the challenge.

Either way, as a PC, I'd think such a creature would be interesting to tackle at a lower level-- but instead of doing it "mano a mano", doing it either as head of a force of hale and hardy low-level warriors; or else through deception or cunning.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I would assume from all the palaver about this monster that it's a BBEG for the whole campaign, probably something we are intended to take on in the final session. (We play short duration campaigns of about 15-25 sessions, that have a story arc of some kind.)

Down my way it would probably be a tailored encounter. The GM wouldn't bother doing stats for it until his prep for the last session. I would figure he would tailor it to be a hard fight for whatever level we are at the time, whether we are level 10 or 15 - my group like very fast levelling.

The idea of the PCs trying to work out what level the defeated adventurers were is a bit weird to me because, as I see it, level is a rules concept, it doesn't really exist in the game-world.

You're quite right, Bullgrit, that the 'no one has ever survived this before' bit is a standard rpg trope. It's a common storytelling device to build tension and excitement. Protagonists in adventure fiction are forever killing monsters that have slain loads of 'NPC' heroes in the past.

Whether the players can assume anything from this about whether they should or shouldn't take on the Big Bad depends on what they know about the style of game. If it's a sandbox with all static encounters then it's a sign to be wary. If it's a more story oriented game with tailored encounters then it isn't. If the game has a blend of styles, as most do, the players might look to the GM for a hint or two or, more likely, they'll figure it out from past experience.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Well, if a monster is truly unbeatable and has been that way for centuries, you also have to come up with a reason for it not to have ventured out from its environs/lair and conquered the world. (i.e., it's undefeated in its swampy cave home, its desert abode, its lair atop the Icy Peaks, but has never journeyed beyond...)

I like the idea proposed above that the monster may be unbeatable without a special artifact and/or weapon to stop it. Maybe nobody has been able to find said artifact, or even knows about it? But again, if it is that powerful, why hasn't it conquered the world, or at least a good part of it?

I might even introduce the PCs to said monster at a low level, but give them a way out of a TPK (the monster drops the PCs in one round with some super-attack power, the NPC that tags along heroically jumps on the monster, while shouting "Fly, you fools" to them, allowing them a chance to leave...)

Of course, PCs being PCs, they might think (a) this is the Boss Fight and the DM wants it to be tough - so, charge! or (b), we can't leave that poor NPC there, so we must continue to fight until he/she can escape.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Nagol's approach probably wouldn't wash down my way as the players wouldn't be happy with that amount of investigation in a D&D game. They'd expect that type of thing more in Call of Cthulhu but not D&D, which is much more action oriented.

In one of the last 3e campaigns I played in we did some investigation for the final battle with the BBEG. We questioned one NPC and I wanted to question another, to get a second opinion, but another player, Chris, felt we'd spent enough time on talking to NPCs and wanted to get on with things. I was perfectly happy to accede to this, I didn't have a strong feeling either way.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Must spread XP. before giving bullgrit more. can someone cover me?

Love the question. Will think about my General answer.
Specifically My PCs encountered a ruined city where "no one had ever survived spending a night"
At 1st/2nd level. They were sent into to recover some stuff for a ghost (who could not remember exactly what had killed him, several centuries earlier). They obligingly ran as fast as the could when twilight fell.

If they had stayed it would have been a handwaved death scene. If they went in now as paragons? now its a hard fight. But they may think of a reason they want to try it.

ooh they are looking to become landholders, and the ruin is halfway between their 2 favorite cites...

- you may have just altered my home campaign, ill set a hook, see if they bite.

 

[S'mon]

Sounds like Bezzalt, the young adult red dragon of the Dragonspire in my 3.5e Lost City of Barakus campaign. The PCs took him on twice, he kicked their butts twice. AIR he was CR 12 in a setting/campaign which used 1/2 XP and roughly half standard level, so 9th level NPCs were equivalent to 18th in standard 3e. In regular 3e the unbeatable dragon would be CR 21+.

 

[I'm A Banana]

This thinking lead me to considering whether there could be, should be, can be a challenge that is actually, in the game world, truly undefeatable. I mean, there are examples of PCs defeating gods throughout D&D's history. Is it possible for something to be beyond the PCs no matter how powerful they get? Is it a good idea to include such a thing in a campaign world? Should there be some challenge that exists beyond PC ability to match it?

And how many PCs would perish attempting to beat it? How early, (level), would most PCs start considering tackling it?

Depends on a few assumptions.

First, are you playing "sandboxy" or "cinematically?"

If the game is a story and the PC's are (probably) the heroes, the answer is "Yes, there could be such a creature, and it could be at any level, since its abilities to trounce NPCs are entirely flavor. It could be first level. It could be a single kobold. It doesn't matter. The PC's are probably the heroes, so if anyone can do it, they can."

This would also be the 4e answer.

If the game is a sandbox and the characters are just playing in it, the follow up question is: At what power level is "everyone else"?

In a world like 3e D&D's suggested world where 99% of people are Level 1 Commoners (and the occasional level 20 hero does exist, but they aren't omnipresent), then there could be such a creature at nearly any level. Because PC's are already a cut above normal folk, it makes sense that no "normal person" could beat even a CR 1 or CR 2 monster. The PC's aren't normal people, so they can beat something even if no one else in the land could (even folks who thought they were adventurers, but were really just Level 1 Warriors instead of Level 1 Commoners). The higher you go, the more likely it could be true with respect to a larger area. Maybe no one in the small village of 4 families has ever come back from fighting in the lair of the goblins. Maybe no one in the great planar metropolis of Sharn has ever come back from fighting in the lair of the great ancient wyrm red dragon, but goblins are no big thing. Which would mean the roughest, toughest, most dangerous creatures ever in your world would be Epic Level Monsters of some form or another. And, theoretically, the PC's could beat them, if they got to that level and wanted to, but the threat of "NO ONE HAS EVER RETURNED" is backed up with the stats of a level 50 force dragon.

In a world where the bell curve reaches higher -- 3 or 4 or 10 or whatever (think: FR) -- and the PC's start a big weaker in comparison to many NPC's, the level needs to go up in tandem with the level of the bell curve. If Elminster can kill it, then no one will buy that it's all that dangerous, really. If Elminster CAN'T kill it, it is all that much more dangerous for it.

In a world where there is a higher level cap on NPC's -- level 7 or 10 or whatever (think: Eberron) -- and higher level is a Bigger Deal, the level needs to drop in tandem with the bell curve. If the most powerful hero on the face of the planet is Level 5, then it makes sense that no one has ever returned from that...I dunno...lair of demons or whatever. The PC's will be killing it fairly soon, without gaining THAT many levels -- just more than anyone else in the world has.

 

[Squire James]

The only answer I can give is that wishy-washy "it depends".

At low levels, the "unbeatable monster" is probably designed to reduce half the party to negative HP and then die a horrible death at the hands of the newly-healed PC's.

At mid levels, the "unbeatable monster" is likely a "challenge monster" that should beat any group of PC's that rush in being stupid, but allow fleeing PC's to live and good teamwork parties to prevail.

At high levels, the "unbeatable monster" is some Thing trapped in the deepest Pit of Hell, and Asmodeus (not in disguise!) hires the PC's to kill it intending some combination of (1) killing the PC's and (2) honestly hoping they take out this horrible Thing that wants his job! Other than that, it's much like a the mid-level version except that it cheats the rules in some major way!

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

But should you? Can you take on a centuries-undefeated monster?

Eff yeah!

What level is such a creature? Can PCs level up to be able to defeat it? If you were playing a PC in this game, at what level would you consider taking on the battle?

The monster?

Spoiler

It's a housecat.

What got me thinking about this was the trope: "No one has ever returned alive!" I've seen this rumor mentioned in an adventure for 1st-level characters. And there are similar concepts/adventures that begin with the PC party having to overcome some challenge no one before them has been able to overcome. Was the party just more powerful (higher level) than those who tried before?

If no one has ever returned alive, how does anyone know about the monster in the first place?

 

[Smoss]

The thought of the unbeatable monster can be a fun one - Ask anyone who has to fight Lovecraftian horrors...

Certainly some uses of the rules make them easier. World design and tone is important. There is a reason why I designed my own RPG system along the path I did. I wanted heroes who grew in skill and power but still worried about the mob of peasants with pitchforks and torches (A flatter system). It certainly helps make monsters seem more monstrous. It can be hard to convince the Fighter-type with tons of hit points and cleaves through armies of goblins that there is an unbeatable monster...
Smoss