The Unstoppable Black Dragon

Fifth Element said:
Wait. Is that all one character?

Yes. I absolutely abused 3E's multiclass system to cherry-pick abilities and powers.

He was a Living Greyhawk character. My goal was to build a character that maximized the system via AoOs, Power Attack, extra damage dice, and the huge combat advantage of full concealment/invisibility (50% miss chance).

He was Rogue 1 / Fighter 2 / Ranger 3 / Scout 1 / Wildrunner 2 / Shadowdancer 3, I think. Wood Elf (favored class: ranger).

Ranger 3 for weapon profs, TWF*, track, Endurance (pre-req for Wildrunner), the ranger spell list (even though he couldn't cast, he could use wands), and skills (pre-req for Shadowdancer).
Rogue for Sneak Attack and skills.
Fighter for feat (shadowdancer has steep feat pre-reqs).
Scout for more skills, and damage from skirmish, + movement rate.
Wildrunner for skills, skirmish, scent, and primal scream, + movement rate.
Shadowdancer for evasion, darkvision, uncanny dodge, at-will Invisibility, Shadow companion, illusions, and short-range teleport.

He used a glaive to take advantage of Power Attack and two-handed weapon damage (as a wood elf, he had an 18 Str even using Living Greyhawk's 28 point buy system). He'd Spring Attack a foe, power attacking, and hiding in Plain Sight on the move in (for attack bonus + making foe flat-footed + sneak attack damage + skirmish damage). He'd then Hide on the move out (accepting the -20 penalty; not bad with max ranks, 18 Dex, and Cloak of Elvenkind). Most times, the foe literally wouldn't know who hit him, and even if had a stellar Spot check and Readied an action, it'd be no good because the attack would be from 10' away thanks to the reach of the glaive.

Hiding in Plain Sight is even better than Invisibility, because the spell See Invisible doesn't beat it. Only Spot checks. And with something like a +25 Hide modifier, not many things had a good enough spot check. Only requirement is to stay within 10' of "some sort of shadow"; typically the character stayed within 10' of companions, his mount, foes, trees, rocks, tables, etc. Shadows are everywhere. Funny enough, one reason I picked up Wildrunner was for the Scent ability, just in case an enemy picked up Hide In Plain Sight and wanted to snoop around...

Then add in the perfect scout: the shadow companion. He's incorporeal and has darkvision, so he can just walk through the wall into the adjacent room, or stick his head into the locked chest or sarcophagus and report what's inside, or "swim" down a flooded passage. And since he's only hurt by magic, you can send him in alone to deal with animals, some Beasts, low- or mid-level monsters, oozes, even some aberrations and giants.

Yeah, it was abuse. But then, in 3E only casters stayed with just one class. Just about every player I met had a character that dabbled in at least one other class, usually Fighter for the weapon proficiencies and feat or Rogue for the sneak attack and skills.

-z

* regarding TWF: in those rare cases where he'd stand toe-to-toe and do full atacks, he'd use the glaive as his primary weapon, and armor spikes for his off-hand weapon. In this way he'd get the extra attack from the off-hand weapon, but still gain the Str-to-damage and Power Attack benefits of using a two-handed weapon. Again, the character was a deliberate exercise in powergaming 3E rules.
 
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True 'nuff. Front-loaded character classes and a weak favoured class constraint make for happy times when cherrypicking. I think every non-spellcaster PC I've seen has had at least 1 fighter level, usually 2. You'll probably have to work harder to cherrypick the system in 4E, and even if you do, you'll still recognisably be whatever you started as.
 

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
We had braziers with black flames... the fighter (me) ran up and tried to slam the crap out of the dragon while the ranger and the wizard put the fire out (doing something like 5d6 damage until the flames were out).

I think the two other characters were able to do 5d6 damage twice each before the fire was extinguished.

This was in a delve and not the Scalegloom Hall FR module.

x10 Rocks BTW and so do x2, x4, and x5.
 

Mistwell said:
Hordes of people didn't come away from it all upset. It's not a published anything.

One person was upset:

"Jason asserted that it often seemed as if PCs were either "coasting" through adventuring challenges in the new edition, or "completely terrified" by foes that wildly overmatched them. He claimed that, in his admittedly limited experience, he hadn't felt particularly threatened until forced to face a "Solo" monster 3 levels higher than the party (apparently the same Black Dragon). He acknowledged that the death and dying mechanic ensured that most PC's would have at least 3 rounds to live after they lost consciousness, but wondered if it would put DMs in a position where "the only to kill you is to attack you while you're down."

I think he got the wrong impression of the system. Or did he get it right?
 


LordArchaon said:
My take: with just 2nd or 3rd level characters the fight would have been of different odds, and we're speaking of 4th level solo monster.

So, absolutely no problem with anything related to this dragon fight.
Anything BUT the flight.
A fight with a flying dragon could have been possible (always if we're talking of a little less difference between monster and party level) with just some cover for the PCs on the battleground and a bow armed fighter, maybe with some incendiary arrows to put some black flames from the braziers on.

A bow isn't really necessary--the dragon only has one ranged attack, and fighters are very sticky. Convince the dragon to come at the fighter with claws and melee, and the fighter has at least a decent chance of pinning the dragon down and preventing it from flying away.

Come on, we're talking about 3 levels lower party, the problem's all there.
I guess a 6th level party would eat the damn dragon for breakfast.

I don't know about "eat the dragon for breakfast," but the fact that a six-person 1st-level party seems to have had a roughly 70-30 shot at beating the dragon, it sounds like the math does indeed scale pretty danged well.

EDIT: In addition, I think the problem was with the dragon being a Lurker. To effectively fight a lurking beast like that, you need AT LEAST one character with high perception and initiative, which I guess was absent.

Yeah, I expect a rogue would have been very handy in that fight.
 

takasi said:
One person was upset:

"Jason asserted that it often seemed as if PCs were either "coasting" through adventuring challenges in the new edition, or "completely terrified" by foes that wildly overmatched them. He claimed that, in his admittedly limited experience, he hadn't felt particularly threatened until forced to face a "Solo" monster 3 levels higher than the party (apparently the same Black Dragon). He acknowledged that the death and dying mechanic ensured that most PC's would have at least 3 rounds to live after they lost consciousness, but wondered if it would put DMs in a position where "the only to kill you is to attack you while you're down."

I think he got the wrong impression of the system. Or did he get it right?

The honest answer for those of us whose only exposure is D&DXP is: we don't know. I can tell you what happened during my delves and preview adventures, but that's 9 sessions out of who knows how many for the convention. There are going to be stories on the extremes. Ignore those. Focus on what most people are saying about their experiences. The majority of what I'm reading on EN World from those who went is about the same as my experience, so I feel pretty confident that I got a good taste of the system, inasmuch as we were only shown 1st level abilities and generally 1st to 4th level challenges.
 

Insight said:
Ignore those. Focus on what most people are saying about their experiences.

The quote is significant to me because it's coming from the Paizo rep who went, and they're making a decision soon about 4E which I think will have a greater influence on the quantity of quality of 4E material. I can ignore the opinions of the majority of posters here who were at DDXP, because they have no impact on my game. Paizo's opinion matters.
 

Kordeth said:
A bow isn't really necessary--the dragon only has one ranged attack, and fighters are very sticky. Convince the dragon to come at the fighter with claws and melee, and the fighter has at least a decent chance of pinning the dragon down and preventing it from flying away.



I don't know about "eat the dragon for breakfast," but the fact that a six-person 1st-level party seems to have had a roughly 70-30 shot at beating the dragon, it sounds like the math does indeed scale pretty danged well.



Yeah, I expect a rogue would have been very handy in that fight.

Perfectly agree: the math seems really ok, my bet is that you will always be able to have fun fights with monster levels going from 2 lower to 2 higher the party level. This was 3 higher and was tough. Could have been won with some luck, good tactics and a more canny party member instead of someone else (a Rogue, as you said and I hinted at).
This particular play-test made me even more intrigued and happy about the coming of 4e, not at all the contrary.

EDIT: Thinking about the dragon trying to escape a winning party of adventurers out in the wild, I suddenly pictured a character able to give extra speed to his/her mount by the means of a special feat or power and chasing him fast on his horse, slinging arrows or manifesting dreadful psionic attacks, while the dragon tries to escape flying low under the canopy, fearing for his life and hoping to reach completely open field before the brave warrior kills him...
 
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I know that we're sure that a Black Dragon still retains his acid breath weapon, but the last I checked, no one knows if a Black Dragon has maintained its aquatic nature. I've been reading alot of posts about escape tunnels to water sources and things of that sort, but what if that doesnt gain the black dragon the benifits it used to? What if the black dragon's natural habitat is now within a cave. Or what if now -gasp- a black dragon is just a dragon, with no prefered geographical location?

I could be quite wrong here, but we dont know for sure yet. Do we?
 

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