The Value of Art, or, "Bad" is in the Eye of the Beholder

[Mallus]

If I take a lump of clay, squish pebbles into it, and say "There - it's art", it's essentially worthless.

What if you yanked a urinal out of a wall and called it art? Or stacked some Brillo boxes or painted soup cans?

In some schools of thought they'd say "Hey, that pebbly clay lump might just be art!", depending on the conceptual framework behind it, and its place in the wider context of the history of ceramics...

 

[Mark Hope]

The stuff on that site is old, I've done a lot since. If you'd like, I can send you some newer stuff. I'd enjoy your input tremendously.

I am tempted to accept your offer, but I'm not sure I should. I am finishing off design projects for Dark Sun 3e at the moment and am then taking a break from all design and reviewing work in preparation for the birth of my son (due any day now!). So while I'd like to read and offer my baseless vitriol in return, I can't guarantee that I'd have the time. If you have something short, though, why not send me that and I'll give it a shot. As you already know, though, I am an opnionated and uncaring swine, so caveat emptor ...

 

[Hypersmurf]

In some schools of thought they'd say "Hey, that pebbly clay lump might just be art!", depending on the conceptual framework behind it, and its place in the wider context of the history of ceramics...

Some schools of thought have too much time on their hands.

(I'm reminded of a quote:
Hopkins: The cat... sat on... the mat.
Keating: Congratulations, Mr Hopkins... yours is the first poem to have a negative score on the Pritchard scale.)

-Hyp.

 

[Merlion]

Hmm... I read that comment differently.

Position A: Anyone can form an opinion of a piece of art, and that opinion has merit.
Position B: Only those with certain training/knowledge/skills/experience can form an opinion that has objective merit of a piece of art.

Position B requires a distinction between those who have Factor X and those who do not; a distinction between elite and non-elite. In order to hold position B, one must accept the existence of an elite.

To say "Those who hold Position B are elitist" doesn't strike me as an attack, merely a clarification of stance.

-Hyp.

Exactly. Thanks for clearing that up so nicely Smurfy.

 

[Mallus]

Some schools of thought have too much time on their hands.

There may be some merit in that position...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Exactly. Thanks for clearing that up so nicely Smurfy.

Well... reading your own response to that post, I'm not so sure any more.

I thought the Elitist remark was in relation to the Elite nature of critics... but your reply to AMG indicates that you were talking about Storm Raven's belief in the Elite nature of artists (or of art). That it is not the holder of an opinion which possesses or fails to possess Factor X, but the work (or the artist) which has or has not the X Factor.

In which case, I have to admit that I'm an elitist too, by that reading... I strongly agree that there are works (and artists) which are good, and those that aren't...

-Hyp.

 

[Mark Hope]

Some schools of thought have too much time on their hands.

(I'm reminded of a quote:
Hopkins: The cat... sat on... the mat.
Keating: Congratulations, Mr Hopkins... yours is the first poem to have a negative score on the Pritchard scale.)

-Hyp.

J. Evans Pritchard! Where is his incisive insight into art and meaning when we need it? He could sort all of this out with a nice simple graph...

 

[Merlion]

I am tempted to accept your offer, but I'm not sure I should. I am finishing off design projects for Dark Sun 3e at the moment and am then taking a break from all design and reviewing work in preparation for the birth of my son (due any day now!). So while I'd like to read and offer my baseless vitriol in return, I can't guarantee that I'd have the time. If you have something short, though, why not send me that and I'll give it a shot. As you already know, though, I am an opnionated and uncaring swine, so caveat emptor ...

I'll find you some short ones. Or I may just send you whatever, but dont feel pressured to read anything right away, just whenever you feel like it and have a spare moment. I'll distinguish the short ones from the not as short (though honestly most of my stuff is under 10 pages single spaced).

Well, I think that you have a tendency to mistake opinions for assertions of fact, unless the person speaking expressly qualifies his words as only opinion. My take on it is that a person's words are only ever opinions, unless they expressly qualify them as facts.

yea I tend to take people litterally. But I also tend to feel that especially on messageboards, you should make an effort to be very clear about things.


But mostly I've been speaking of instances, such as in the Eragon thread, where I said to someone that said it was bad that it was only bad in their opinion, and then they began to explain how its "objectively bad" etc. Which is a lot of what this all comes from, people trying to say their opinions are "right" about a work of art, either because of their special training, or because a lot of people agree with them.

Yes it can. But that just means that we should be vigilant, not that we should reject the idea of superior opinions out of hand

To me the idea of a superior opinion is just an oxymoron. Opinions are inherently subjective, and as such one is simply incapable of being "better" than the other. *Maybe* better informed.

With the stuff that really matters, it usualy isnt a matter of opinion.

Mostly what scares me about it is it follows that if someones opinion is inferior, they may be as well.

Heh. Well, it might not surprise you when I say that I believe that some people are more valuable than others. Elitism is just a fact of life. I think that it is a failing of our culture that we cannot accept this without feeling (or being made to feel) like bad people. Life isn't fair and we do ourselves a disservice by sticking our heads in the sand and being all kumbaya about it.

I think people can devalue themselves by doing horrible things, like Ted Bundy. And I believe people can fail to, or be prevented from, reaching their potential. And the potential comes in different forms...not everyone can be a virtuoso musician, or a brilliant physcists, but everyone can contribute and do great, meaningful things in their own way.

You hit the nail on the head there in your last sentence. People do have the right to express their opinions as "distastefully" as they like - they had just better be prepared to accept the consequences of doing so.

Well, I dont really believe that anyone has the right to intentionally try to be hurtful to someone. I dont even really think that you have the right to not think about other peoples feelings. But officially you do, and so we have laws and customs to punish those who dont show respect for others.

 

[Mark Hope]

I'll find you some short ones. Or I may just send you whatever, but dont feel pressured to read anything right away, just whenever you feel like it and have a spare moment. I'll distinguish the short ones from the not as short (though honestly most of my stuff is under 10 pages single spaced).

Fire away, man.

yea I tend to take people litterally. But I also tend to feel that especially on messageboards, you should make an effort to be very clear about things.

OK, but given that folks generally aren't clear about these things, you might wanna consider that people spouting stuff on messageboards maybe aren't making factual pronouncements as a default assumption. In the case of this thread, at least, it would have cut out maybe 30% of the posts ...

To me the idea of a superior opinion is just an oxymoron. Opinions are inherently subjective, and as such one is simply incapable of being "better" than the other. *Maybe* better informed.

Nah, man, you're way off base there. As folks have pointed out, if I express opinions that people of certain ethnicities, religions, sexualities, size, or physical ability, are somehow less of a person than me, I am clearly espousing an inferior opinion. Conversely, someone who takes a contrary position has a superior opinion. I take your point that you are largely referring to opinions on art, but I just want to belabour the point that superior and inferior opinions are demonstrably possible.

Mostly what scares me about it is it follows that if someones opinion is inferior, they may be as well.

Do you really mean "scared"? I know that this might be treading too close to your personal space here, but I think it bears repeating that life is not fair. Some people are inferior to others in demonstrable ways. It's an ugly fact of life and I wish it weren't the case. But it is.

I think people can devalue themselves by doing horrible things, like Ted Bundy. And I believe people can fail to, or be prevented from, reaching their potential. And the potential comes in different forms...not everyone can be a virtuoso musician, or a brilliant physcists, but everyone can contribute and do great, meaningful things in their own way.

No, not everyone can, unfortunately. Potential is at the heart of this subject. From a purely theoretical perspective, everyone should be born with the potential to do miracles in the world. But not everyone is. You can't tell me that an orphan in Darfur has the same potential as the child of intelligent, educated, wealthy parents in a first world country - or the same chances as you or I or anyone else in this thread. And, beyond the whims of fate, some folks are simply not cut out for great things. Rotten, I know, but that's the way it is.

Well, I dont really believe that anyone has the right to intentionally try to be hurtful to someone. I dont even really think that you have the right to not think about other peoples feelings. But officially you do, and so we have laws and customs to punish those who dont show respect for others.

Heh, at the very least a person who behaves that way can expect a smack in the mouth every now and then. On such base principles are our laws and customs founded...

 

[Mallus]

Which is a lot of what this all comes from, people trying to say their opinions are "right" about a work of art, either because of their special training, or because a lot of people agree with them.

Why don't you try engaing with other people's arguments instead of taking it personally and getting upset over their tone?

*Maybe* better informed.

That's awfully generous of you to say... *maybe* all those people who've studied art criticism/history haven't *completely* wasted their time.

Mostly what scares me about it is it follows that if someones opinion is inferior, they may be as well.

So this is all about self-validation?

...but everyone can contribute and do great, meaningful things in their own way.

This is a lovely sentiment that you'll probably grow out of.