The Value of my DDI Subscription

[Scribble]

1/year or so they've put out a major release (IMO)

PHBI
PHBII
PHBIII
the Essentials books

These are worth way more than a few new feats, or background benefits.

There are tons of new races and classes in these books. The only DDI class has been the Assassin...which has had awful, awful support, and the only race, Revenant (and a Gnoll expanded race) which wasn't bad.

Well sure- but I think maybe this sort of highlights what I meant... Between say PHB1 and PHB3 there wasn't much of a rate increase, and yet all that new info was added to the system, and we even got new tools- yet this all seems to be valued less then the content we DIDN'T get.

Maybe it just highlights how it was a poor business model from the start?

 

[the Jester]

Scribble- So here's the thing about the value of the material.

Other than preview material *that won't let you play the stuff being previewed* I haven't looked inside a Dungeon or Dragon in a couple of months.

Likewise, the updated Monster Builder that screws everything up has made me throw up my hands, and I haven't used it in several months either.

The online CB? I haven't gotten a single character made with it yet. It just isn't compellingly fun to use like the old one was.

As for the Compendium, I'm still using that- a little- but it's incomplete now, so if I want to have access to all the resources... I need my books as well. So it might as well be instead.

In other words, the value of my DDI sub has plummeted severely to almost nil. Early in my sub, I devoured the stuff in Dungeon and Dragon, used the CB to experiment with different character options for fun and made dozens of monsters, often several for a single game session.

Honestly, as much as the dwindling content, it's the lack of utility that's making me glum about DDI- the tools that were once fun to use are now frustrating headaches, and (at least for the MB) I don't expect it to be fixed for a long time. Most likely, in a few months or a year, we'll finally get the online Monster Builder released... and it will be buggy as all hell for another 6 months. So why not wait 2 years to renew instead?

I mean, seriously, I want to give WotC my money for DDI, but right now I am getting very nearly nothing out of it. Certainly, if all DDI had offered when I subscribed was an incomplete Compendium, I wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Ryujin]

Well sure- but I think maybe this sort of highlights what I meant... Between say PHB1 and PHB3 there wasn't much of a rate increase, and yet all that new info was added to the system, and we even got new tools- yet this all seems to be valued less then the content we DIDN'T get.

Maybe it just highlights how it was a poor business model from the start?

Many people consider things like Essentials and Dark Sun to be "not got", because they weren't provided in CBC. Many people considered the tools that they had been promised to be part of their original subscription fee, which was the reason that they were upset when they didn't materialize. Suggesting that there was little or no increase in cost, for providing what had been promised in the first place, rather loses the thread.

In addition to what those people perceive as having "not got", along with that "less valuable content" that they didn't get, is the implied deception for 2.5 months while they less and less patiently waited for that content.

 

[Scribble]

I mean, seriously, I want to give WotC my money for DDI, but right now I am getting very nearly nothing out of it. Certainly, if all DDI had offered when I subscribed was an incomplete Compendium, I wouldn't have bothered.

I get that as the reasoning. I'm just interested in the value or perceived value of the content, and how that plays into the whole system. (And again not from trying to debate anything- just interested in how people think is all.)

I'm also interested in how people see this in regard to the pricing of the subscription.

It seems in many cases that unavailable content seems to be by the users more important then available content.

(For instance when you spoke of the compendium, you seemed to indicate the lack of certain content weighed more heavily on whether or not the tool was good.)

It also seems people put more weight on the tools- IE if the CB lacks functionality, the system is devalued...

So in this case if the system worked perfectly, could export characters, and maybe had an offline mode, but only had a limited set of books, would this be more valuable?

Also at what point, would an increase in price feel justified?

If the tools functioned right say, 95% of the time, and DS and Essentials were added to them- Would that warrant an increase in subscription price?

Many people consider things like Essentials and Dark Sun to be "not got", because they weren't provided in CBC.

Yes- I am aware of this.

Many people considered the tools that they had been promised to be part of their original subscription fee, which was the reason that they were upset when they didn't materialize.

Which tools?

Suggesting that there was little or no increase in cost, for providing what had been promised in the first place, rather loses the thread.

Not sure I agree here. A whole lot of data was added to the system. There was only one small increase in price (despite WoTC saying in the past they were not setting the price firm.)

In addition to what those people perceive as having "not got", along with that "less valuable content" that they didn't get, is the implied deception for 2.5 months while they less and less patiently waited for that content.

So, had they indicated that they were releasing a web based CB that would be released in 2.5 months- would that have made people less upset?

Would more information in your opinion be useful, or add fans to the fire so to speak?

 

[the Jester]

Obviously YMMV, but here are my answers to your questions.

It seems in many cases that unavailable content seems to be by the users more important then available content.

(For instance when you spoke of the compendium, you seemed to indicate the lack of certain content weighed more heavily on whether or not the tool was good.)

See, the whole point of the Compendium is to make it so that I don't need my books to do adventure design. But if I want the full suite of options available to me, that is no longer true, which makes the Compendium substantially less useful. I used it as a stand-in for my books; it cannot serve that role completely any more. So, yes- the lack of content is what detracts from the value of the Compendium.

Compare it to the SRD for 3e. I know it served a completely different purpose, but I think my analogy will hold. The SRD was a collection of the most basic rules, and while it might be a useful reference tool, it wasn't what I used to design adventures- I used my books instead.

Now the Compendium is sliding towards "useful reference tool" when up to now it has been a "replacement for having the books on hand". Its basic function has changed for me, not just its functionality- and it isn't a function I need or want to pay for.

It also seems people put more weight on the tools- IE if the CB lacks functionality, the system is devalued...

So in this case if the system worked perfectly, could export characters, and maybe had an offline mode, but only had a limited set of books, would this be more valuable?

Absolutely. But since the standard that WotC established with the original CB was so high- really, it was their one shining digital success- anything less than the original's level of performance would still be of lesser valuable than CB1. And part of that level of performance was "all the options at your fingertips!"

I recognize that this sounds unfair, but even an equally-stable, equally-fun CB2 with the same rules support as CB1 but no further updates is a significant loss of value from what we had. Again- the whole point of the CB is to let you avoid having the books on hand. If it's missing a bunch of options, you are back to writing a character sheet by hand. And really, until there is (at least minimal) house rules support in the CB, this is where we're at. In this state, the CB is worthless and useless to me.

Also at what point, would an increase in price feel justified?

If the tools functioned right say, 95% of the time, and DS and Essentials were added to them- Would that warrant an increase in subscription price?

First of all, I agree with the premise that a DDI sub is a great value, assuming that DDI produces anything I'm going to use. As it stands, a good Monster Builder, a good Character Builder or good content in at least one of the online mags would probably be enough to convince me to renew at the current price. But to justify an increase, they would have to quit screwing up the good stuff and improve things instead of letting them degrade constantly.

So, had they indicated that they were releasing a web based CB that would be released in 2.5 months- would that have made people less upset?

Would more information in your opinion be useful, or add fans to the fire so to speak?

I don't know- but it's the misleading statements that really pissed people off, imho. Leading folks to expect Dark Sun and Essentials in the CB was a bad, bad move- now the "liar liar!!1!!" cries have a lot of sympathy.

If the new CB wasn't ready (which I think is very clear), they should have announced it as a public beta and continued support for the CB1 in the meantime. I know it takes more resources; I don't care. What WotC has done instead has cost them quite a few subs and garnered a great deal of ill-will for them, as well as shattering what credibility their digital offerings had started to build. I cannot believe that this is a win for them, nor do I think the sales gained by piracy deterrence are going to make up for the money lost in lost subs and people giving up 4e entirely in frustration.

The irony, of course, is that when most groups do that, they usually move to a different version with no online tools at all. If WotC hadn't established such high expectations pre-release with all their "guaranteed, DDI goes live on release FULL ON!!1!!", I doubt very much whether they'd generate so much anger.

 

[MrMyth]

For myself, I asked for a November refund (citing concerns over the online CB and the lack of Compendium updates) and received it. WotC at least seems to be pretty good along those lines as far as customer service goes.

I'm hopeful that, six months from now, things will be looking much better as far as tools goes. Until then... if they don't deliver whatever meets my reasonable expectations of service, I'll keep asking for refunds.

The Compendium is, honestly, my biggest concern. They really need to get back on schedule and stay on it. Honestly, they really just need more staff, but that isn't happening.

As for Dragon and Dungeon... there has been a lot of concerns about diminishing quality, but I'm not sure if I've seen it. Quality has very much been inconsistent, with one or two articles a month that need serious revising in the compilation, or are otherwise lacking (or fiascos like this month's assassin article)... but at the same time, there have been other articles and adventures that have been absolutely top quality. It certainly seems an improvement from a few months back, so I'm hopeful they are moving out of the worst of it.

For me, I'm still getting enough out of it to make it worth waiting and seeing if it improves. Even in its current state, the Compendium remains invaluable to me, and that will probably remain true no matter how many problems crop up elsewhere in the line.

 

[renau1g]

Well sure- but I think maybe this sort of highlights what I meant... Between say PHB1 and PHB3 there wasn't much of a rate increase, and yet all that new info was added to the system, and we even got new tools- yet this all seems to be valued less then the content we DIDN'T get.

Maybe it just highlights how it was a poor business model from the start?

Yes they were added and yet as a stupid person I bought all the books (PHB's X Power, etc.) and my subscription cost per month was supposed to cover those books being added to the CB. I also fail to see that it was a poor business model. MMO's add new content often without jumping the sub price (at least in my limited experience). If they added new features (like the forthcoming VTT) I can see an opt-in feature for $x/month more to get it (like say buying an expansion pack for WoW). They did increase the price when they added the MB. Maybe a straight dollar increase it wasn't big, but as a % it was 20% or so (59.40 to 71.40). I felt that the MB and increased material in the CB was worth paying 20% more for. Would I pay another 20% now? Probably not.

PS What new tools? The MB (which they subsequently broke and haven't updated in quite some time)? The VTT (early beta)?

The MB was decent before they broke it, the CB was amazing, now it's just ok... VTT looks interesting, but I wasn't one of the cool kids and didn't get an invite () so no I didn't get it. It's coming "soon"

 

[Bagpuss]

It seems in many cases that unavailable content seems to be by the users more important then available content.

Yes unavailable content/features are more important than available content (within reason).

For example I'm running Dark Sun, so I've had to wait for the CB stuff, then when it comes it still really isn't suitable for a Dark Sun campaign. The new CB doesn't support Inherent bonuses, it doesn't have any of the Dark Sun boons or other items to replace magical items, and it doesn't support house rules so I can add my own similar items. The Compendium still doesn't have the monsters and neither does the monster builder.

So the fact that Themes are in and the other powers and paths are there doesn't really mater because there still isn't really the support for the campaign I want to run. I can even really complete a first level adventure the way I want because I was planning on giving out a boon.

Of course if the CB didn't even have the PHB classes in that would be more of an issue the fact it does, doesn't really help my Dark Sun campaign.

 

[Ryujin]

The Jester's comments covered my views quite well, so I'll be brief.

Which tools?

Some have already been realized, like the Compendium, Character Builder, and Monster Builder though Character builder has been essentially pulled back to virtually initial release state. Some are in the works now, like the VTT. Until it actually arrives, it just ain't worth considering. Some just dried up, like Character Visualizer.

Not sure I agree here. A whole lot of data was added to the system. There was only one small increase in price (despite WoTC saying in the past they were not setting the price firm.)

And while an update schedule for Character Builder and Compendium weren't stated, the idea of updates as material was released is key to the concept. How many people would have bought into this, if initial release was all that we'd ever get? While DDi has been a great value until recently added material is what I paid for, not "something extra."

So, had they indicated that they were releasing a web based CB that would be released in 2.5 months- would that have made people less upset?

Would more information in your opinion be useful, or add fans to the fire so to speak?

At the very least it would have given people a choice, regarding the last three months. What they did smacks of deception and misdirection, which is not how you deal with paying customers. At this point I have absolutely zero faith in any statement that comes from Wizards and that will color all of my dealings with them in future.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I am forced to say, reluctantly, that I have slid into the "Oh my god this is a disappointing mess and not just because it needs more work" camp. Every time I go to the new CB and try to update characters I end up more and more irritated, to the point that I seriously think about going back to the old CB, though it would mean starting up the Windows PC that I hate with a fiery passion.

As it is, I'm tempted to start using spreadsheets for everything, however much typing that might entail.

(A couple of examples: Why does the Character Sheet show feats that have been retrained OUT of? And it seems that for the Knight [a simple class if there is one] it adds the +2 to initiative that one earns at level 3, but does not increase it to +4 at level 8, and adds the +1 to damage from level 3, but does not increase it to +2 at level 13.)