D&D 5E (2024) The value of Sap Mastery

[Zardnaar]

I’m really liking the look of it on a berserker barbarian or vengeance Paladin. Something that can add quite bit of damage while sap and the shield shore up defenses.

One thing I hate about 5e martials is that outside a little extra hp, the casters usually get better ac (Druid/Cleric with an actual shield) or situationally better (Wizard/sorcerer with shield spell).

I dont notice that as much as I've been putting in more magical items than typical.

Fairly close to the DMG 5.5 recommends. "Mundane" armor and shield that dont require attunement seem popular.

Monk has bracers of defense +2 AC. Spellcasters lime the DM specials/BG3 imports more.

Ymmv of course based on magic items going around. Nerfed pre 3E levels/curated lists to buy.

11/7/2 rare/very rare/legendary tier 3 is suggest amount. Ive put a couple of extra legendaries in not enough very rares.

The legendaries aren't the best/most powerful.

 

[mellored]

It varies widely with number of attacks you get, number of attacks enemies get and the number of enemies you are fighting.

Using sap requires a lot of situational tactical application. For example do you focus fire on one bad guy so you can bring him down or do you split your attacks to sap multiple enemies.

Also it is much better on a very high AC character with interception than it is on a low AC character.

You can swap weapons.

Also, Sap is only one 1 handed weapons without the Light or Finesse properties.

So grab a shield, walk up to the main target. Hit with Sap and then Slow to keep them nearby and protect others. Toss in Shield Master to help keep them down. Maybe Heavy Armor Master or Mirror Image.

Only other way to use it without a shield is as a bonus action attack from the Dual Wielder feat (with a Light main hand), or as a fighter 9.

 

[FrogReaver]

No not even close. I would agree in most situations, the goal is to bring one down as soon as possible, but that does not mean an individual player focusing fire.

For example, a simple scenarios - me and one ally are fighting two 15hp Hobgoblins in melee and we have a 70% chance of hitting them. I do 8 damage on average and my buddy does 10. If initiative is me, ally, Hobs and I hit one of the Hobgoblin with my first of 2 attacks. If I hit one of the hobs on my 1st attack with sap it is always going to be statistically better to attack the second hob as opposed to focusing on the first unless our AC is very low.

Are you suggesting the players know the exact hp of these creatures before killing one in battle. If not then I don’t think this shows that. If so, I don’t think that realistic but let’s discuss anyways.

One cannot just take the average damage you do on a hit. There is a range. This is a probability distribution problem. But regardless I’ll play along.

If all 4 attacks hit it doesn’t matter.
If no attacks hit it doesn’t matter.
If 1 hits nothing changes.

So really we are only looking at 2 and 3 attacks hitting scenarios.

Even more clear we are looking only at you hit twice scenarios as if you hit once it didn’t matter which you targeted with your 2nd sap attack.

So we have the following scenarios.
You hit twice and your ally none.
You hit twice and your ally once.

Given you hit twice then if your ally hits none you’ve either killed an enemy or given it disadvantage. Depending on the chance to hit you and their number of attacks disadvantage could be better or not. Given their low attack applying disadvantage to both would be better than killing one.

Of course I’d count this example in the 1% I already acknowledged it’d be better for. So Not really sure the point here. 1 anecdotal cherry picked example only proves not always, but I never said always.

Different scenario - we are fighting 8hp Orcs, I hit one of them 7 damage, he has 1 hit point left but he is sapped, but I miss on my second attack. Again it is usually statistically better for the Barbarian to attack the other Orc

If they were 11 hp orcs I don’t think that would hold. So if he knows for sure these are 8hp orcs then sure, otherwise he’ll have to weight each value their ho may be probabilistically, evaluate and then statistically best choice would be to take the course of action that yields the best expected results.

And again, you’ve cherry picked one of the 1% examples I already agreed existed. What point are you trying to make?

Because it cuts the damage to you or more importantly a lower AC ally if they attack and hit either of you. It stacks very well with sap, especially if you have lower AC allies who will be in melee with you.

RAW is very debatable whether intercept works on attacks against the PC using it.

This is not true in most games I play, especially when magic items become available. Also there are generally different classes at the table.

Magic items can effect everyone equally or close the ac gaps just as often as they expand them.

Also 3 points AC will cut the number of hits by 50% or more at the high end and by 80% or more when sapped.

Only if your ac is significantly higher than enemy attacks (but not too high) which for almost every 5e pc is not the case. And really if your being hit 5% of the time or something silly like that, why bother with sap to begin with.

 

[ECMO3]

I’m really liking the look of it on a berserker barbarian or vengeance Paladin. Something that can add quite bit of damage while sap and the shield shore up defenses.

One thing I hate about 5e martials is that outside a little extra hp, the casters usually get better ac (Druid/Cleric with an actual shield) or situationally better (Wizard/sorcerer with shield spell).

I think sap works best on a fighter, particularly because they can use it with any weapon past level 9, meaning they are not stuck making multiple attacks with sap where every attack after the first hit as no mastery.

I like it on an Eldritch Knight the best. You get extra damage from the War Magic cantrip and can pick up Hunter's Mark or Hex through Fey Touched on top of that and recast it with your spell slots. At high level you can use any weapon and get Vex. So you can go Rapier and shield at level 11 it would be bonus Hunters Mark, attack(vex), attack(vex)-truestrike(sap) so 3d8+5d6+2str+Int with up to 2 of the attacks at advantage. It is even better if you can do Blade Cantrips because you can dump Intelligence and use Defensive Duelist instead of shield spell and then you can go Attack(Vex)-Booming Blade(Sap)-attack(Push) and make them take even more booming blade damage if they want to move back into melee. If it all lands you are looking at 8d8+3d6+3str if they move back into melee.

You also have the option of going hunters mark, making 2 attacks and then dropping hunters mark for Blade Ward with your third attack to boost effective AC even higher. This is situational but valuable at times.

This won't outnova a Paladin, but I think this is going to generally outdamage a Sap Paladin, especially when you consider regular advantage and the greater mobility from Tactical Shift (and Misty Step) which lets you get into melee better.

 

[ECMO3]

But regardless I’ll play along.

If all 4 attacks hit it doesn’t matter.
If no attacks hit it doesn’t matter.
If 1 hits nothing changes.

It does matter, first as you said above you can't just take the average damage, there is a probability distribution at play.

Also this is a decision you make AFTER your first attack hits and AFTER you do damage with it bit before your second attack. So there is no possibility of no attacks hitting. As a PC with 2 attacks you only have the option of focusing your fire after the first of your two attacks hits.

That is the decision point and whether the next three all hit or none of the next three hit there is a statistically "best" decision on whether to attack the same enemy again or attack the other enemy.

Likewise after player 1s turn whether he hit one of them or both of them there is a statistically "best" decision for player number 2.

So really we are only looking at 2 and 3 attacks hitting scenarios.

No the first scenario I am looking at you hit the first guy with your first attack and 3 attacks are remaining. This could turn out be a 1-hit (3%), 2-hit (19%), 3-hit (44%) or 4-hit scenario (34%) but it can not be a 0-hit scenario if you hit and sapped one enemy.
The chance of a 2 or 3 hit scenario is the most likely outcome. There are also multiple variations of 2-hit and 3-hit scenarios depending both on who you attack and whether you or your ally or both miss one (or your ally both) attacks.

So we have the following scenarios.
You hit twice and your ally none.
You hit twice and your ally once.

Given you hit twice then if your ally hits none you’ve either killed an enemy or given it disadvantage. Depending on the chance to hit you and their number of attacks disadvantage could be better or not. Given their low attack applying disadvantage to both would be better than killing one.

If you are assuming average damage yes, but it is 4 times more likely that you hit twice and your ally once than it is you hit twice and your ally misses both. For the extra guy that survives to overcome this you would need an extremely low AC for this to be a better decision.

Of course I’d count this example in the 1% I already acknowledged it’d be better for. So Not really sure the point here. 1 anecdotal cherry picked example only proves not always, but I never said always.

I think it is much more than 1% and if you are using a sap weapon with extra attack you are getting no benefit from the sap property if you target an enemy you already hit. Basically it is like having no mastery after the first hit (unless you are a high level fighter).

Further if focusing max damage on one enemy is always (i.e. 99%) better, then logically Vex, Graze or in most cases Topple are all going to be better than sap in 99% of cases, because these all substantially improve your damage on the enemy you target with extra attack. There will be a positive damage boost from these masteries which you do not get from sap. You are giving up damage against a single enemy to use sap at all, and if giving up any damage to a single enemy is never worth causing disadvantage on an attack, then sap would never be the best mastery to use.

And again, you’ve cherry picked one of the 1% examples I already agreed existed. What point are you trying to make?

I picked examples that are easy to illustrate, but it is a lot more than 1% in my experience. As a matter of fact I think itusually better to target a different enemy on any round where the enemy you focus on will not die before their turn and it is always better when the enemy you would focus on will probably die before their turn whether or not you target them or someone else.

I would say with sap it is easily half the time you are fighting multiple enemies. That is my opinion from extensive experience using sap. Sap is my prefered mastery, it is the one I have used most often (with nick being second most).

Magic items can effect everyone equally or close the ac gaps just as often as they expand them.

Yes they can, but they generally aren't. A character building for a high AC is going to prioritize items that boost that, particularly when they use attunement (as most that boost AC do).

For example I am wielding a +1 shield, that isn't a bonus someone who does not use a shield is going to get. I also have a ring and a cloak sucking up 2 of my 3 attunement slots (Wand of Fear is in the third slot). Other party members took the Wand of Paralyzation, Ring of Invisibility, Brooch of Shielding, Boots of Striding and Springing, Crystal Ball and Ring of Feather Falling we found (and probably other attunement stuff I can't remember).

Only if your ac is significantly higher than enemy attacks (but not too high) which for almost every 5e pc is not the case. And really if your being hit 5% of the time or something silly like that, why bother with sap to begin with.

Because with sap you are hit like 1 time in 400 if you are only hit on a 20, moreover sap affects whoever they target, not just you.

 

[ECMO3]

Also, Sap is only one 1 handed weapons without the Light or Finesse properties.

Or on all weapons for fighters level 9 or above.

 

[ECMO3]

So grab a shield, walk up to the main target. Hit with Sap and then Slow to keep them nearby and protect others. Toss in Shield Master to help keep them down. Maybe Heavy Armor Master or Mirror Image.

Yeah I do most of that. Except Sheild Master, hard for me to fit that feat in.. But mirror image often on many of my PC.

Only other way to use it without a shield is as a bonus action attack from the Dual Wielder feat (with a Light main hand), or as a fighter 9.

I am playing two PCs that use sap often right now, not always with a shield.

One of them I mentioned above Elemental Eye Warlock 4/Eldritch Knight 3. She is sword and board, started out with a Flail and is now sporting a Longsword +2.

I am also playing a Halfling Ranger 2/fighter 2/Dance Bard 6. She has an 8 strength but usually uses a Longsword +3 with Truestrike and sometimes Hunter's Mark when she attacks. She has a crapton of masteries - Longbow, Longsword, Carrikal (custom weapon with push), spear and dagger. She does not use a shield but uses Dance Bard unarmored defense. She has an 8 Strength.

My last level 20 PC (Glamor Bard 6/Fey Wanderer Ranger 12/Druid 1/Monk 1) also had an 8 Strength and for a while (level 7-13ish) her main melee weapon was an intelligent Flametongue Longsword that did double damage to Giants. Her other mastery at that time was Vex which she did dual wielding a dagger+2 and a dagger of Venom (often throwing them). Usually it was the Longsword though because her wisdom was 20 and her dex 16. She used the sword with Truestrike on Wisdom. Later on in the campaign she switched to a Staff of Striking though and usually used Shillelagh on it. She was more of a caster/controler than hard melee though. She also did not use a shield because she used Monk unarmored defense.

Both of these last two PCs did 1d10 base damaGE with the Longsword because it was versatile.

I expect when the new Bladesinger is published a Longsword will be mechanically the best weapon to pair with the character (getting mastery from a multiclass)

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah I do most of that. Except Sheild Master, hard for me to fit that feat in.. But mirror image often on many of my PC.



I am playing two PCs that use sap often right now, not always with a shield.

One of them I mentioned above Elemental Eye Warlock 4/Eldritch Knight 3. She is sword and board, started out with a Flail and is now sporting a Longsword +2.

I am also playing a Halfling Ranger 2/fighter 2/Dance Bard 6. She has an 8 strength but usually uses a Longsword +3 with Truestrike and sometimes Hunter's Mark when she attacks. She has a crapton of masteries - Longbow, Longsword, Carrikal (custom weapon with push), spear and dagger. She does not use a shield but uses Dance Bard unarmored defense. She has an 8 Strength.

My last level 20 PC (Glamor Bard 6/Fey Wanderer Ranger 12/Druid 1/Monk 1) also had an 8 Strength and for a while (level 7-13ish) her main melee weapon was an intelligent Flametongue Longsword that did double damage to Giants. Her other mastery at that time was Vex which she did dual wielding a dagger+2 and a dagger of Venom (often throwing them). Usually it was the Longsword though because her wisdom was 20 and her dex 16. She used the sword with Truestrike on Wisdom. Later on in the campaign she switched to a Staff of Striking though and usually used Shillelagh on it. She was more of a caster/controler than hard melee though. She also did not use a shield because she used Monk unarmored defense.

Both of these last two PCs did 1d10 base damaGE with the Longsword because it was versatile.

I expect when the new Bladesinger is published a Longsword will be mechanically the best weapon to pair with the character (getting mastery from a multiclass)

. Fighters really goodKinda dont want to MC now before lvl 11 or 12 outside certain builds

 

[mellored]

Or on all weapons for fighters level 9 or above.

Yes. As I mentioned.

But that's even more to my point. You can Sap AND focus fire by changing the mastery to say... Graze for pure damage, or Topple if you have melee allies.