The War Cleric

FrogReaver · Sep 14, 2019

For a while, I've floated the idea of how to make use of inflict wounds. A spell that can roll for 30 damage at level 1 is pretty awesome. The biggest problem is that it can miss and do nothing.

I think the War Cleric might be the answer. The ability to add +10 to my attack roll means inflict wounds will rarely miss. This also works with guiding bolt. I guess the question I have is if that and the ability to get a few bonus action attacks per day is enough to make this cleric subclass good.

At least through level 5 this will be one of the best NOVA damage clerics in the game. Inflict Wounds + channel divinity + attack and bonus action attack + attack and bonus action attack.

That's a lot of damage coming out in 3 rounds. I think we are looking at level 5 battlemaster fighter NOVA style damage for a few fights a day.

Thoughts on this Cleric Subclass?

cmad1977 · Sep 14, 2019

War cleric is pretty awesome. Seems to work for the guy at my table. The +10 to hit makes things like inflict or... guided strike(?) really effective.
He doesn’t use it all the time, but when the chips are down, a near guaranteed 4d8 damage plus advantage for an ally has tipped the scales a couple times already.

FrogReaver · Sep 15, 2019

Particular Build I'm thinking looks like.

Level 1 Variant Human War Cleric (Heavy Armor Master feat)
16 str
10 dex
13 con
16 wis
8 int
12 cha

9hp
Greatsword: +5 / 2d6+3
Chain Mail: 16 AC

Spells:
Divine Favor (subclass)
Shield of Faith (subclass)
Command
Healing Word
guiding bolt
Inflict Wounds

cmad1977 · Sep 15, 2019

Yes I got the spell details wrong. Guiding Bolt is the spell he’s unleashed with that’s been a balance tipper.
Since we’re doing CoS the cleric in general is a pretty good class.

Esker · Sep 15, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Particular Build I'm thinking looks like...
<snip>

Is this a Standard Array only game? Feels to me like if you're centering inflict wounds at low levels you'd really like to get war caster and make yourself really sticky. If point buy were allowed I'd probably drop CHA down to 10 to get WIS to 15 before the racial bonus, and swap observant for war caster.

As for your nova strategy... Inflict wounds with a 1st level slot does an average of 15.5 damage (edit: nope, 16.5) on a hit. Your greatsword does an average of 10. If instead of using inflict wounds you cast divine favor in round 1 and attack with your greatsword, your 1st round damage is up to 12.5 on a hit.

Assuming a 60% or so to-hit chance, the expected damage in each round of the inflict wounds strategy is

Round 1: 16.5 * 0.95 = 15.7 (with Guided Strike you'll only miss on a nat 1)
Round 2: 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^1) + 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^2) = 15.8
Round 3: 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^3) + 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^4) = 13.6

where I'm assuming you use Guided Strike the first time your attack roll would miss but isn't a nat 1 (which in this scenario has a 35% chance of happening each attack).

So, cumulative damage over the first three rounds is 15.7, 31.5, 45.1.

With Divine Favor in round 1 instead, the expected damage per round is

Round 1: 12.5 * 0.95 = 11.9
Round 2: 19.7 (same math as above but replace 10.0 with 12.5)
Round 3: 17.0

Cumulative damage is 11.9, 31.6, 48.6

Of course that assumes you maintain concentration.

You're down about 3 damage in the first round, even after 2, but up about 3.5 after 3. Whether that's better depends on how likely the extra round 1 damage is to make the difference between something going down and not.

Of course you have 3 uses of War Priest, and we're only using 2 here. What happens if we don't cast any spells and just use War Priest in each of the first 3 rounds?

Round 1: 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^0) + 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^1) = 17.8
Round 2: 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^2) + 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^3) = 14.4
Round 3: 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^4) + 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^5) = 13.0

Cumulative: 17.8, 32.2, 45.2

So that's the best 1st and 2nd round nova option, but lags divine favor slightly after three rounds. But it seems like inflict wounds is never the best option unless war priest is used up.

Of course plug in a higher enemy AC and at some point the ability to deploy guided strike on that one big attack will presumably overcome the wasted bonus action in round 1.

FrogReaver · Sep 16, 2019

Esker said:
Is this a Standard Array only game? Feels to me like if you're centering inflict wounds at low levels you'd really like to get war caster and make yourself really sticky. If point buy were allowed I'd probably drop CHA down to 10 to get WIS to 15 before the racial bonus, and swap observant for war caster.

Nope. Just used standard array for ease. I picked charisma to be 12 because it seemed fitting for the war cleric to be a somewhat inspirational figure that could rally the troops so to speak. I actually don't like war caster for this - but it's an option with point buy. Heavy Armor Master just seems much more fitting for a war cleric.

As for your nova strategy... Inflict wounds with a 1st level slot does an average of 15.5 damage on a hit. Your greatsword does an average of 10. If instead of using inflict wounds you cast divine favor in round 1 and attack with your greatsword, your 1st round damage is up to 12.5 on a hit.

Inflict wounds does 16.5 average damage on a hit. 5.5*3 = 16.5.

In a 3 round fight Divine favor will let you do 1 more damage at the end in exchange for doing 4 more damage at the start. The damage difference at the end likely won't matter. The damage difference at the start is enough to reliably kill things like orcs in 1 turn as opposed to 2. That can make a much bigger difference.

Assuming a 60% or so to-hit chance, the expected damage in each round of the inflict wounds strategy is

Round 1: 15.5 * 0.95 = 14.7 (with Guided Strike you'll only miss on a nat 1)
Round 2: 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^1) + 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^2) = 15.8
Round 3: 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^3) + 10.0 * (0.60 + 0.35*0.65^4) = 13.6

In a fight I really wanted to do damage and had a 60% chance to hit I would use both of my slots on inflict wounds, especially if the first hit without needing guided strike +10 hit

That still leaves me my war priest with most of his extra attack feature for other fights. I still have heavy armor master

So, cumulative damage over the first three rounds is 14.7, 30.5, 44.1.

You misapplied my damage strategy and used the wrong average damage for inflict wounds

With Divine Favor in round 1 instead, the expected damage per round is

Round 1: 12.5 * 0.95 = 11.9
Round 2:

19.7 (same math as above but replace 10.0 with 12.5)
Round 3: 17.0

Cumulative damage is 11.9, 31.6, 48.6

Of course that assumes you maintain concentration.

Let's look at resources remaining after this first fight.
I have 2 uses of war priest extra attack, no spell slots and heavy armor master
You have 1 use of war priest extra attack and 1 spell slot and war caster

I know which option I lean toward in that comparison.

Let me do a more accurate comparison

FrogReaver · Sep 16, 2019

Frogreaver's Inflict Wounds Warcleric (Optimized)

Assuming 60% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit, using guided strike when needed
Combat 1
Round 1:
Inflict Wounds = 16.5 Damage
Round 2:
Attack + Bonus Action attack = 16.5 Damage
Round 3:
Attack + Bonus Action attack = 14.3 Damage

Total Damage = 47.3

Assuming Short Rest
Combat 2:
Round 1:
Inflict Wounds = 16.5 Damage
Round 2:
Attack + Bonus Action Attack = 16.5 Damage
Round 3:
Attack = 7.3 Damage

Total Damage = 40.3

Esker's Divine Favor Warcleric

Assuming 60% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit, using guided strike when needed
Combat 1:
Round 1:
Attack + Divine Favor = 12.4 Damage
Round 2:
Attack + Bonus Action Attack = 20.7 Damage
Round 3:
Attack + Bonus Action Attack = 17.9 Damage

Total Damage = 50.9

Assuming 60% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit, using guided strike when needed
Combat 2:
Round 1:
Attack + Divine Favor = 12.4 Damage
Round 2:
Attack + Bonus Action Attack = 20.7 Damage
Round 3:
Attack = 9.2 Damage

Total Damage = 42.2

FrogReaver · Sep 16, 2019

Based on the above numbers, Divine Favor does slightly more damage assuming at least 3 rounds of attacking in combat. The downside is that divine favor does less damage up front, relies on concentration and forces you to use other resources to hit the number listed above, even in circumstances where it's now apparent the fight is easily winnable and you would be better off saving those resources for later.

In short for level 2 I firmly believe inflict wounds is the better war cleric option, despite a slightly lower best case scenario DPR for both builds.

In addition once level 3 is reached, using a 2nd level slot on inflict wounds is now much better. In fact, it's also better than spiritual weapon for single target damage.

Esker · Sep 16, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Nope. Just used standard array for ease. I picked charisma to be 12 because it seemed fitting for the war cleric to be a somewhat inspirational figure that could rally the troops so to speak. I actually don't like war caster for this - but it's an option with point buy. Heavy Armor Master just seems much more fitting for a war cleric.

That's fair enough; I was just trying to think about squeezing as much out of inflict wounds as possible. Being able to use it on an AoO potentially makes you a formidable lockdown force.

Inflict wounds does 16.5 average damage on a hit. 5.5*3 = 16.5.

Yeah, duh, you're right. I'll edit my post above to have an accurate reference.

In a 3 round fight Divine favor will let you do 1 more damage at the end in exchange for doing 4 more damage at the start. The damage difference at the end likely won't matter. The damage difference at the start is enough to reliably kill things like orcs in 1 turn as opposed to 2. That can make a much bigger difference.

I get 3 less in round 1 and 3-4 more at the end, but maybe you factored in crits? Those would favor inflict wounds, naturally.

In a fight I really wanted to do damage and had a 60% chance to hit I would use both of my slots on inflict wounds, especially if the first hit without needing guided strike +10 hit

That still leaves me my war priest with most of his extra attack feature for other fights. I still have heavy armor master

I don't understand why you'd use up your spell slots instead of your bonus action attacks if you were going all out in the first two rounds. The bonus action attacks are both leading to more damage (at least in the first two rounds) and are a less versatile resource.

You misapplied my damage strategy and used the wrong average damage for inflict wounds

I obviously used the wrong damage number, but how did I misapply your damage strategy? I was just applying what you wrote in the OP:

Inflict Wounds + channel divinity + attack and bonus action attack + attack and bonus action attack.

Let's look at resources remaining after this first fight.
I have 2 uses of war priest extra attack, no spell slots and heavy armor master
You have 1 use of war priest extra attack and 1 spell slot and war caster

But again, isn't a spell slot a more valuable thing to have remaining than a bonus action attack? You might find yourself in a situation where a guiding bolt or a healing word is more urgently needed than a bit more melee damage.

FrogReaver · Sep 16, 2019

Esker said:
I get 3 less in round 1 and 3-4 more at the end, but maybe you factored in crits? Those would favor inflict wounds, naturally.

I may have miscalculated in my first response. I posted my actual numbers and the include crits.

I don't understand why you'd use up your spell slots instead of your bonus action attacks if you were going all out in the first two rounds. The bonus action attacks are both leading to more damage (at least in the first two rounds) and are a less versatile resource.

This is a great point. Also of note is that not even using your spell slot and just using the 3 bonus action attacks in 1 combat comes very close in damage to your divine favor option. It has the added benefit of being very front loaded and frees up your more versatile resources for later. I think that's actually the best strategy. Save your spell slots.

I obviously used the wrong damage number, but how did I misapply your damage strategy? I was just applying what you wrote in the OP:

The OP wasn't written from a this is the best damage possible concept. Just a this is very good damage. I actually thought 2 inflict wounds in a single combat would be meaningfully better which is why I proposed that. It's not the case though.

But again, isn't a spell slot a more valuable thing to have remaining than a bonus action attack? You might find yourself in a situation where a guiding bolt or a healing word is more urgently needed than a bit more melee damage.

Totally agree. In that case divine favor is an even worse idea. Just use the 3 bonus action attacks for your high damage fight. Then you have your versatile spell slots for more damage or healing etc.