The War Cleric

[Esker]

This is a great point. Also of note is that not even using your spell slot and just using the 3 bonus action attacks in 1 combat comes very close in damage to your divine favor option. It has the added benefit of being very front loaded and frees up your more versatile resources for later. I think that's actually the best strategy. Save your spell slots.

That was my original conclusion above. Divine favor wins if our benchmark is cumulative all-in damage after three rounds as you had framed the question in your OP; even moreso after four (with the big caveat that you have to maintain concentration), but if you want to really frontload as much as possible, you should be using up war priest before you think about using any damage spells.

 

[FrogReaver]

That was my original conclusion above. Divine favor wins if our benchmark is cumulative all-in damage after three rounds as you had framed the question in your OP; even moreso after four (with the big caveat that you have to maintain concentration), but if you want to really frontload as much as possible,

I don't agree with your conclusions about divine favor. In the best case scenario it can ink out a couple of points of damage. In many other scenarios it doesn't end up paying off. It's not just Loss of concentration. Perhaps there's no meaningful reason to continue using your bonus action attacks due to some good fortune and enemies falling faster than planned (a team lucky streak on hits). Becoming controlled. Dropping to 0 hp. Etc.

Damage up front strategies bypass all those concerns. The difference in combat damage would have to be significantly higher than single turn alternatives provide in order to justify damage buffs. IMO.

you should be using up war priest before you think about using any damage spells.

The more I examine the issue the more I agree with this. Use the bonus action attacks first. Use the spells after... At least till level 3+ At that point we are better off using inflict wounds instead of divine favor etc.

 

[FrogReaver]

@Esker, I'm interested in your observations for this character at level 6. I get an extra use of the channel divinity. I get spirit guardians and spiritual weapon (traditional cleric damage spells). I have an ASI choice.

What would you choose and what would be your basic damage combat progression for single target.

I'm thinking level 3 inflict wounds, level 2 inflict wounds, attack bonus attack

For all out damage you could use all high level inflict wounds. Something like 77 damage over 3 turns.

 

[Esker]

@Esker, I'm interested in your observations for this character at level 6. I get an extra use of the channel divinity. I get spirit guardians and spiritual weapon (traditional cleric damage spells). I have an ASI choice.

What would you choose and what would be your basic damage combat progression for single target.

I'm thinking level 3 inflict wounds, level 2 inflict wounds, attack bonus attack

For all out damage you could use all high level inflict wounds. Something like 77 damage over 3 turns.

Let's compare that to taking GWM, which lets you take full advantage of Guided Strike (unlike inflict wounds where a +10 is overkill most of the time).

Option 1: Using War Priest bonus action attack with GWM (assuming base to-hit is down to 55% since we didn't boost strength):

Avg damage per hit: 2 * 3.5 + 13 = 20

Round 1:
Chance we have 2 guided strikes left: 1.00
0.80 chance to hit with guided strike
Damage per attack: 0.80 * 20 = 16
Expected damage Round 1 (using War Priest): 32

Round 2:
Chance that we have 0 guided strike left: 0.50 * 0.50 = 0.25
Chance that we have 1 guided strike left: 2 * 0.50 * 0.50 = 0.50
Chance that we have 2 guided strike left: 0.50 * 0.50 = 0.25
Main attack to-hit: (0.30 + 0.75 * 0.50) = 0.675
Chance that we have 0 guided strike left now: 0.25 + 0.50*0.50 = 0.50
Chance that we have 1 guided strike left now: 0.50 * 0.50 + 0.25 * 0.50 = 0.375
Chance that we have 2 guided strikes left: 0.25 * 0.50 = 0.125
Bonus attack to-hit: (0.30 +(0.375 + 0.125) * 0.50) = 0.55
Expected Damage for the Round: (0.675 + 0.55) * 20 = 24.5

Round 3:
Chance that we have 0 guided strike left: 0.50 + 0.375 * 0.50 = 0.6875
Chance that we have 1 guided strike left: 0.375 * 0.50 + 0.125 * 0.50 = 0.25
Chance that we have 2 guided strike left: 0.125 * 0.50 = 0.0625
Main attack to-hit: (0.30 + 0.25 * 0.50) = 0.425
Chance that we have 0 guided strike left now: 0.6875 + 0.25 * 0.50 = 0.8125
Chance that we have 1 guided strike left now: 0.25 * 0.50 + 0.0625 * 0.50 = 0.15625
Chance that we have 2 guided strike left: 0.0625 * 0.50 = 0.03125
Bonus attack to-hit: (0.30 + (0.15625 + 0.03125) * 0.50) = 0.39375
Expected Damage for the Round: (0.425 + 0.39375) * 20 = 16.4

Cumulative Damage (1st 3 rounds): 32, 56.5, 72.9

Chance that we have 0 guided strike left now: 0.8125 + 0.15625 * 0.50 = 0.89
Chance that we have 1 guided strike left now: 0.15625 * 0.50 + 0.03125 * 0.50 = 0.094
Chance that we have 2 guided strike left: 0.03125 * 0.50 = 0.016

Expected Guided Strike Remaining: 0 * 0.89 + 1 * 0.094 + 2 * 0.016 = 0.126
War Priest Remaining: 0
3rd level Spell Slots Remaining: 3

Option 2: Inflict Wounds, Boosting Wisdom

Avg damage per hit (3rd level): 5 * 5.5 = 27.5 (assume 60% base-to-hit)

Round 1
Chance we have 2 guided strikes left: 1.00
0.95 chance to hit with guided strike
Expected damage Round 1: (0.60 + 0.35) * 27.5 = 26.1

Round 2
Chance we have 1 guided strike left: 0.35
Chance we have 2 guided strikes left: 0.65
Expected damage Round 2: (0.60 + 0.35) * 27.5 = 26.1

Round 3
Chance we have 0 guided strike left: 0.35 * 0.35 = 0.1225
Chance we have 1 guided strike left: 0.35 * 0.65 + 0.65 * 0.35 = 0.455
Chance we have 2 guided strike left: 0.65 * 0.65 = 0.4225
Expected damage Round 3: (0.60 + (0.455 + 0.4225) * 0.35) * 27.5 = 24.9

Cumulative Damage (1st 3 rounds): 26.1, 52.2, 77.1

Chance that we have 0 guided strike left now: 0.1225 + 0.455 * 0.35 = 0.282
Chance that we have 1 guided strike left now: 0.455 * 0.65 + 0.4225 * 0.35 = 0.444
Chance that we have 2 guided strike left: 0.4225 * 0.65 = 0.275
Expected Guided Strike Remaining: 0 * 0.282 + 1 * 0.444 + 2 * 0.275 = 0.994
War Priest Remaining: 4
3rd level Spell Slots Remaining: 0

I didn't factor in crits, which would favor inflict wounds a little. So damage-wise, blowing 3rd level slots lags a little behind using war priest in rounds 1 and 2 if we take GWM, but we tend to use only one Guided Strike, vs usually using both with GWM and War Priest, and if we need more than two rounds, we have more left in the tank. Plus we didn't spend a feat dedicated to nova tactics.

In the narrow scope of the theorycrafting exercise, it's a tough call; blowing all three 3rd level slots in one fight is a lot, but then so is blowing all three of our bonus action attacks and likely both of our channel divinities. In reality I prefer inflict wounds, mainly because I don't want to take GWM on a character that never gets a real second attack just to do a little better damage over two rounds.

 

[Esker]

One thing that's interesting about this character is that it seems like there's almost no point in even taking spiritual weapon. You can't cast it on the same turn that you use War Priest or Inflict Wounds, and doing neither of those things on the first round makes your damage massively less. Even if you're out of everything else, it takes a few rounds for spiritual weapon's damage to catch up with a 2nd level inflict wounds.

 

[FrogReaver]

One thing that's interesting about this character is that it seems like there's almost no point in even taking spiritual weapon. You can't cast it on the same turn that you use War Priest or Inflict Wounds, and doing neither of those things on the first round makes your damage massively less. Even if you're out of everything else, it takes a few rounds for spiritual weapon's damage to catch up with a 2nd level inflict wounds.

Agreed. That may change a bit at level 7?

 

[Esker]

Agreed. That may change a bit at level 7?

Because of upcast spiritual weapon? I mean, in long fights, or fights where you are changing targets a lot, the standard cleric recipe of spirit guardians plus spiritual weapon is likely to come out ahead. But even with a 4th level slot, spiritual weapon is doing 13 damage on a hit, vs 33 for a 4th level inflict wounds. Put guided strike on top of that and you're getting over 30 damage in round 1 out of inflict wounds, vs ~23 over three rounds with spiritual weapon. Add in a greatsword attack each round and one guided strike and you're talking something like 50 damage over 3 rounds with either one 4th level inflict wounds or a 4th level spiritual weapon, but inflict wounds lets you frontload that a lot more (plus you can up that in later rounds if you use war priest, since your bonus action is free)

 

[FrogReaver]

Because of upcast spiritual weapon? I mean, in long fights, or fights where you are changing targets a lot, the standard cleric recipe of spirit guardians plus spiritual weapon is likely to come out ahead. But even with a 4th level slot, spiritual weapon is doing 13 damage on a hit, vs 33 for a 4th level inflict wounds. Put guided strike on top of that and you're getting over 30 damage in round 1 out of inflict wounds, vs ~23 over three rounds with spiritual weapon. Add in a greatsword attack each round and one guided strike and you're talking something like 50 damage over 3 rounds with either one 4th level inflict wounds or a 4th level spiritual weapon, but inflict wounds lets you frontload that a lot more (plus you can up that in later rounds if you use war priest, since your bonus action is free)

Yea, you are right. I think at some point spirit guardians will be worth casting. Just not at level 5. At least by level 9 it's worth using a high level slot on provided I've fixed concentration somewhat by then. (for single target, for aoe spirit guardians still has a use)

 

[Zardnaar]

Personally not a fan of the war cleric with the default array.

Prefer going in on light clerics or nature and Arcana clerics for beatdown.

Your blowing a lot of resources to deal barely more damage than the polearm Master feat.

A light cleric for example can Nova almost as good and a lot more especially to multiple targets.

Nature clerics polearm Master or arcana clerics with gfb and shillagh via magic initiate.

War and Tempest clerics tend to have similar issues to the valor bard to MAD.

Rolled stats Chang things of course (16,16,14,14 or better changes things).

 

[FrogReaver]

Personally not a fan of the war cleric with the default array.

I don't use default array. Does anyone actually use it?

Prefer going in on light clerics or nature and Arcana clerics for beatdown.

Light isn't impressive for single target beatdown.
Arcana offers very little other than easy access to a melee cantrip. The bonus actions attacks and +10 attack channel divinity easily make up for that till at least tier 3.

Your blowing a lot of resources to deal barely more damage than the polearm Master feat.

A polearm Master feat does 8.4 damage per turn and interferes with using spiritual weapon and bonus action attacks from war priest. It's a pretty terrible feat for this PC.

A light cleric for example can Nova almost as good and a lot more especially to multiple targets.

No where near the single target capabilities. It does even less than polearm master.

Nature clerics polearm Master or arcana clerics with gfb and shillagh via magic initiate.

Neither are impressive till at least tier 3.

War and Tempest clerics tend to have similar issues to the valor bard to MAD.

18 str and 18 wisdom works fine. Just use point buy or rolling.

Rolled stats Chang things of course (16,16,14,14 or better changes things).

All you really want is two 16's and a 12 for any dual stat PC. Contrary to popular belief - being down 1 ASI in your primary abilities to a non mad character isn't a big deal - especially when you get very strong abilities to make up the difference.

To sum it up, you way overvalue SAD builds.