D&D 5E The Warrior (or how to balance martial's and casters)

dave2008

Legend
Heh, if only, the 5e spell point system didnt hurt the eyes!


I think you should use the official Wizard spell point system, because official and Wizard.

But hopefully, the spell point system gets an update in the future that makes spell points more user friendly and more convenient on the fly with less chart consulting calculations.

When the update happens, the Warrior stamina points can update too.
I've updated to 2.0 which adds the stamina points. It seems simple to me. You have the stamina points on the table and each exploit as an SP cost. The only thing you have to remember is that despite you SP total you can only ever execute one exploit of each level above 5th.
 

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dave2008

Legend
PS - I am going to take a break from this project a bit to work on other things. I initially just wanted to do a proof of concept, which I feel is complete. However, I have become intrigued enough with the idea that I want to develop it further. So I will be back, but I have other things I have to get done.
 
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Yaarel

Mind Mage
I dont think you should do the following in this post. But towards a revised spell point system generally:

1 point (mediocre or poor slot 1 spell)
2 points (excellent or good slot 1 spell)

3 points (mediocre or poor slot 2 spell)
4 points (excellent or good slot 2 spell)

5 points (mediocre or poor slot 3 spell)
6 points (excellent or good slot 3 spell)

7 points (mediocre or poor slot 4 spell)
8 points (excellent or good slot 4 spell)

9 points (mediocre or poor slot 5 spell)
10 points (excellent or good slot 5 spell)

11 points (mediocre or poor slot 6 spell)
12 points (excellent or good slot 6 spell)



Treat slots 7 to 9 separately, without points. Slots 7 and 8 kinda suck except Forcecage that needs a nerf or a rethink. Slot 9 is the full range from subpar to excellent and better.
 
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dave2008

Legend
I dont think you should do the following in this post. But towards a revised spell point system generally:

1 point (mediocre or poor slot 1 spell)
2 points (excellent or good slot 1 spell)

3 points (mediocre or poor slot 2 spell)
4 points (excellent or good slot 2 spell)

5 points (mediocre or poor slot 3 spell)
6 points (excellent or good slot 3 spell)

7 points (mediocre or poor slot 4 spell)
8 points (excellent or good slot 4 spell)

9 points (mediocre or poor slot 5 spell)
10 points (excellent or good slot 5 spell)

11 points (mediocre or poor slot 6 spell)
12 points (excellent or good slot 6 spell)



Treat slots 7 to 9 separately, without points. Slots 7 and 8 kinda suck except Forcecage that needs a nerf or a rethink. Slot 9 is the full range from subpar to excellent and better.
I'm not sure why I would do this, care to explain? The current system is balanced with the existing wizard class on a spell/stamina point vs spell slot basis and I would like to do the same. Your proposal would immediately through that balance out the window.

Ideally when a curate the final exploit list the exploits of a given level are relatively equally relevant. This is the better approach IMO.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
I'm not sure why I would do this, care to explain? The current system is balanced with the existing wizard class on a spell/stamina point vs spell slot basis and I would like to do the same. Your proposal would immediately through that balance out the window.

Ideally when a curate the final exploit list the exploits of a given level are relatively equally relevant. This is the better approach IMO.
I think the Wizard should do something like the spell points rethink, but the Warrior should do whatever the Wizard does.



Re the rethink for Wizard spell points:

slot level = class level

Simple.

Also the awkward "1 point left over" is useable.



Meanwhile the official spells already cover the full range from barely worthwhile slot 1 spells to very power slot 6 spells, without any gaps in between.
 
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dave2008

Legend
I think the Wizard should do something like the spell points rethink, but the Warrior should do whatever the Wizard does.



Re the rethink for Wizard spell points:

slot level = class level

Simple.

Also the awkward "1 point left over" is useable.



Meanwhile the official spells already cover the full range from barely worthwhile slot 1 spells to very power slot 6 spells, without any gaps in between.
Maybe if WotC does a rethink for he '24 edition I will too, but I don't think so now.

However, I actually did look at making slot level = class level like 4e and oddly enough it didn't work. I am not saying it is insurmountable, but the issue is casting/executing things at higher level (which is a nice mechanic) that I want to keep and possibly enhance a bit. That doesn't work, or work as simply, if you use slot level = caster level. Then again, it might work with a points based system. I will look at again when I come back to this project.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Maybe if WotC does a rethink for he '24 edition I will too, but I don't think so now.

However, I actually did look at making slot level = class level like 4e and oddly enough it didn't work. I am not saying it is insurmountable, but the issue is casting/executing things at higher level (which is a nice mechanic) that I want to keep and possibly enhance a bit. That doesn't work, or work as simply, if you use slot level = caster level. Then again, it might work with a points based system. I will look at again when I come back to this project.
I wouldnt worry about it. Do whatever the Wizard does.

Just saying, it would be nice if 5e spell points worked well generally.
 

dave2008

Legend
Just saying, it would be nice if 5e spell points worked well generally.
I do have a question about this as I am not sure what your issue is with the DMG spell points system. IMO opinion it does work well. You have a pool of spell points and spells cost at certain number of points. You just subtract them from the total. What does not work in your mind?
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
I do have a question about this as I am not sure what your issue is with the DMG spell points system. IMO opinion it does work well. You have a pool of spell points and spells cost at certain number of points. You just subtract them from the total. What does not work in your mind?
One concern about 5e spell points is, are you comfortable with a high level Wizard casting Wish, say, ten times a day? At that tier it might be balanced, but still. The spell slots only allow one Wish per day.

An other concern is, the costs are wonky, including no way to spend a leftover 1 point. Also, it isnt self-evident that slot 3 costs 5 points and slot 8 costs 11 points.

A third concern is, the math is "big" numbers for something on the fly - obviously doable, but distracting from prioritizing the narrative immersion. To be fair, the math is comparable to hit point math. Also to be fair, equating points with class level is even bigger numbers. Even so, to focus on narrative is beneficial for mind style.

The first and third concerns are enough for me to prefer 5e slots over the 3e Psion power points, despite that I love the 3e Psion class. The second concern adds awkwardness.



These concerns are about spell points generally. I still think you should just do the Wizard chassis for the Warrior.

I even think the Warlock chassis is more suitable for the Warrior concept. But I still think using the Wizard chassis is important in its own right, to see how the Warrior compares to both the Wizard class and the Fighter class.
 

dave2008

Legend
One concern about 5e spell points is, are you comfortable with a high level Wizard casting Wish, say, ten times a day? At that tier it might be balanced, but still. The spell slots only allow one Wish per day.
Per the DMG you can only cast 8th & 9th level spells once a day. It doesn't matter how many spell points you have.
An other concern is, the costs are wonky, including no way to spend a leftover 1 point. Also, it isnt self-evident that slot 3 costs 5 points and slot 8 costs 11 points.
The cost goes with the spell. If you look at my exploits the cost is listed on the exploit. You don't have to figure anything out. Though your correct there is nothing you can do about the 1 point, except use your arcane recovery.
A third concern is, the math is "big" numbers for something on the fly - obviously doable, but distracting from prioritizing the narrative immersion. To be fair, the math is comparable to hit point math. Also to be fair, equating points with class level is even bigger numbers. Even so, to focus on narrative is beneficial for mind style.
I agree the big numbers math is an issue, but your initial suggestion makes that worse. I am think of way to possibly reduce this.
I even think the Warlock chassis is more suitable for the Warrior concept. But I still think using the Wizard chassis is important in its own right, to see how the Warrior compares to both the Wizard class and the Fighter class.
That was definitely the initial idea. Though as I develop it further I plan to be less shackled by that concept.
 

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