The Worst Prestige Class Awards

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

1) I do not believe I am "overcomplicating things". PrCs, IMHO, require some form of training. They do not spontaneously appear in a level 7 character.

Read the description of a PrC in the DMG: "Additionally, the character must meet nonrule-related requirements in-game, such as group membership fees, special training exercises, quests and so forth." pg. 27

The above tells me that there has to be a group of other Chibby Chubs who accept new members and train the character in the secret lore of being a Chibby Chub.

Then you are missing the words "such as". A given PClass may have a group to join, but it may not. Therefore your statement that there "has to be a group" for the generic Chibby Chubs is overcomplicating things.

The rule you have quoted says nothing more than that you must meet ALL prerequisites for a given class. There is no statement to the effect that all PClasses must have these rerquirements, only that they must be met if they exist.

Also, your "spontaneously appear" comment makes me think you did not read my post very well.

2) The level 1 character who says, "I want to be a Chibby Chub!", puts unneeded work on the DM to create a group of Chibby Chubs while the PCs are only level 1. For someone who does not believe that most PrCs are balanced and/or functional, (i.e. Arcane Archer) and does not use a published campaign setting, this is an added level of complexity when most of my already limited time should be spent on making an adventure for the party at level 1.

The group error is addressed above.

If you considered a PrC unbalanced, don't use it. I don't use PClasses I considered unbalanced. I also don't use feats I consider unbalanced. Same for spells. The presence of unbalanced feats and spells has never led me to considere banning feats and spells completely.

3) If a Fighter wants to be a Whip Specialist at level 7, what is the difference if said character stays as a Fighter and takes whip related feats, some of them whip-specific? You can still call that character a Lasher, but from a game perspective, he is a 7th level Fighter. Why can I not tweak with the Fighter class exclusively for that character's specialty and give the character the same types of bonuses without that character actually gaining a new class?

Who says you can't?

But isn't tweaking the fighter class going to take time away from your making of adventures?

4) I dislike the fact that not one single character stays as a single class character or even a consistent PHB multiclass character in a long term campaign. I have never seen a 20th level Fighter. I feel that most characters are "mush", as hong so aptly named it.

ok.

I have not observed this problem. And I find a whip fighting fighter who becomes a Lasher to be much less of a mush character than a whip fighting fighter who starts taking sword feats when he runs out of decent whip applicable feats. (Unless you want to take time away from adventure design developing new whip feats)

And I don't think you have correctly described the "mush" idea as presented by Hong. Perhaps I am mistaken, but if the PClass fits the same concept, it is not mush. Only when a player starts splashing in classes just to gain an ability, without any tie to the character concept, do you get mush. Fighter10/Lasher10 is not mush. Fighter17/Sorc1/Ranger1/Barbarian1 is mush.

5) I realize that characters receive a limited amount of feats. I am a proponent that feats taken at higher levels should be worth more than feats taken at lower levels. Spells work that way already. At level 15, your feat selection should not be limited to the same feats that a level 1 character can choose. New feat chains fail to see this point.

Example: A feat that combined Supreme Cleave and Supreme Mobility (both from the Master Samurai PrC) into one feat would not be balanced at level 1, but at level 15, this is acceptable. Especially when it's requirements are a +15 BAB, Mobility and Great Cleave.

When I mention feat chains, I do not mean to imitate the present low level Power Attack/Dodge chains. I mean to evolve the idea of these chains to the level of high end gaming, which they so deservedly need.

OK. I don't see where this addresses anything I said. I'm not sure I agree about the balance. But I don't see that it matters. I remain confused how simply allowing a player to take a PClass is more time consuming than building whole new rules.

I find the quantity of feats that non-fighter receive to be much more limiting in character concept development than the quality anyway.

6) I'm happy that you love PrCs. I hate PrCs. I am attempting to explain my reasons for hating them. Please explain your reasons for liking them. Then we may have some common ground to work with. [/B]

You have made two basic points. One is a reading of something into the DMG that is not there.

Second, you indicate concern regarding player abuse and munchkin-style power gaming. This is a player problem. Not a PClass problem.

I like PClasses because they resolve what I perceive to be the biggest flaw in the level system style. They allow great flexibility in character design and concept. A fighter with 11 bonus feats may be able to emulate a wide variety of styles. A Elven ranger who wants to be especially good at forest survival does not have remotely the same luxury. The King of the Forest class in MotW allows this option to be achieved much more completely than feats can.

 

[Number47]

My new GM is planning to do something I heartily approve of: he will design prestige classes on the fly, and ignore entry restrictions other than "by invitation only". This way, the PrC can be tailored to the PC who is interested (is Bob lagging in power relative to the group? or dominating?) and characters don't need to be magically precognitive at 1st level about what PrC they will be invited to join 4 years down the road.

. . . . . . . -- Eric

I do something somewhat similar for my game. First, we use only the core books. Secondly, I don't even use the Prestige Classes in the DMG. When a PC gets to be about third level or so, I ask them to come up with a prestige class they would like to aim towards. All prestige classes have fifth-level as a requirement, so they can't take their first level of prestige until sixth level. Then, as player and DM, we design something that works with their character concept, the world we play in and is balanced for the campaign. We usually do up about the first four levels and hold off the rest to see how it's going. That's enough to nail down some requirements and decide if this is an organization-specific class.

 

[GravyFingerz]

As a game designer, I have to design balanced rules all the time. I discovered a way which gives me the ability to perfectly balance the rules I make.

1) Drink lots of vodka.

2) Sacrifice a chicken.

3) Eat whip cream soup with green olives.

4) Run naked through the streets.

After doing all four within 10 minutes, you will have a perfect sense of rules balance.

 

[King_Stannis]

i can only speak from my experience, but i'd say that prestige classes are the most overhyped part of 3e. they get ink in just about every 3e supplement, and i don't think one of my players has even wanted to join one. it's stuff that you read about, say "hmmmm that's interesting/boring", and then move on.

they've become "filler" material for quite a few D20 companies, under the assumption that everyone thinks they are cool. maybe i'm in the minority, but when i get to the "new prestige class" section of a supplement, i just skip it. it's wasted ink and paper to me. YMMV

 

[Anabstercorian]

My personal opinion is that PrC's are good for some things and feats are good for somethings. THEY AREN'T GOOD AT FILLING IN FOR EACH OTHER AT ALL. When a prestige class does what should be done by a feat, that's a bad prestige class. When a feat does what should be done by a prestige class, that is a bad feat.

 

[Crutchie]

Worst one i have ever seen is one from someone in my group.

We were in the middle of a old school fantasy campaign(smoothly running) when one person in our party had got killed by a Basilisk. So he decided he'd make up a prestige class for a "brand new character concept." Then he gave it to us.(WE TURNED IT DOWN(and got a good laugh))

Here it is:

Gun Blade
Description: The gunblade is a soldier from the future. He through some accident travels back in time. As he goes up in levels he remembers that he has technology.

Requirements: The dm says ok

Armour and weapon Prof=Same as fighter

BAB Fort Reflex Will Special
+1 +2 +0 +2 Feat & Magical Energy Pack
+2 +3 +0 +3 Feat & Laser Rifle
+3 +3 +1 +3 -
+4 +4 +1 +4 Feat
+5 +4 +1 +4 Grenades
+6 +5 +2 +5 Feat
+7 +5 +2 +5 -
+8 +6 +2 +6 Feat
+9 +6 +3 +6 Antimater Rifle
+10 +7 +3 +7 Feat

Feats are gained as a fighter

Magical Energy Pack=This is an energy pack which has MAGICAL powers so it doesn't run out of energy.
Laser Rifle=At second level the gunblade after his time travel remebers that he has a laser rifle.
Grenades=At fifth level he remebers that he has grenades(he never runs out)
Antimater Rifle=At ninth level the gunmaster remembers his laser rifle is not a laser rifle but a Antimater Rifle.

================================
Get this the only limit is only one per campaign.

WE DID NOT USE THIS!!!!!(good laugh though)

 

[Claude Raines]

Laser Rifle=At second level the gunblade after his time travel remebers that he has a laser rifle.

I just wonder how the person who wrote this justified someone "forgetting" they had a laser rifle?

This wand-like thingy I've been carrying around? Hmmm, I really don't know what it is or how to use it - Wait! I remember now, it's a laser rifle!

 

[Nightfall]

they've become "filler" material for quite a few D20 companies, under the assumption that everyone thinks they are cool. maybe i'm in the minority, but when i get to the "new prestige class" section of a supplement, i just skip it. it's wasted ink and paper to me. YMMV

So I take you didn't care much for any of the ones in Relics and Rituals or perhaps the ones like the Unfailing in Hollowfaust? *is just curious since I know you like SL but I am curious about your feelings toward SL prestige classes*


For the record I ALWAYS keep Pr-class world specify and thus I don't use a LOT since SL doesn't have that many NON-Core (so no splat books) other than what's come out.

 

[dagger]

Re: Why do i try?

Amen on that Jasamcarl

I always love that attitude the associates some type of bohemian eliticism with only playing with core rules. As if to say that the type of extreme variation that can only come about with any rules fidelity from some expansion material must be the mark of the 'powergamer' or the even more laughable 'munchkin.' The stigma attached to these terms of course get inflammatory posters noticed and serves to place those of different views on the defensive, as if they are the ones that have to prove balance or lack thereof.

 

[hong]

Gun Blade
Description: The gunblade is a soldier from the future. He through some accident travels back in time. As he goes up in levels he remembers that he has technology.

Now come on. If the space marine was good enough for a Talisman expansion, surely a gun blade is good enough for D&D.