The Worst Prestige Class Awards

[ConcreteBuddha]

This is what you said:

If a Fighter 1 wants to become a chibby chub at level 7, he should start working towards it now. His behavior and combat style should tend to be like a chibby chub in training. Over the course of the next several levels he gets better at fighting and at being like a chibby chub. This includes gaining the skills and feats that are prereqs for the class. Eventually, by level 7, the character has mastered the basic chub skills and gains the abilities of a L1 chibby chub.

The level 1 fighter in question does not know the requirements to become a chibby chub because 1) this is metagame knowledge 2) he has never seen one, nor known their entrance requirements (if there is a guild) or 3) does not know (if self-trained) the precise steps required to become a PrC.

Originally posted by Axiomatic Unicorn
If you considered a PrC unbalanced, don't use it. I don't use PClasses I considered unbalanced. I also don't use feats I consider unbalanced. Same for spells. The presence of unbalanced feats and spells has never led me to considere banning feats and spells completely.

The difference I make here between feats, skills and spells, and PrCs is that I believe only a few of the former are unbalanced, while all of the latter are. Hence why I dropped PrCs.
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Anyway, I will stop directly rebutting people's statements, it doesn't do anything but revert to a Yes/No match. I will explain my position as clearly as I can, and then enough from me, and I'll go hang out with RangerWickett in the people don't agree, live with it mentality.

1) I like Prestige Feats, Spells, Skills and Templates.

2) PrCs have to be made at level 1, while Prestige Feats can be made and applied later.

3) Prestige Feats, Spells, Skills and Templates can be made by publishers, not necessarily by the DM in question. In fact, I would like to see this happen.

4) Prestige Feats should be more powerful than normal feats. Example: If I wanted to make a PFeat, it might look something like this:

Forest Master [General]

You are a at home within a forest.
Prerequisites: Base Fortitude Save Bonus +6, Wilderness Lore 12+ ranks, Hide 6+ ranks, Endurance, Track
Benefits: You can move overland through a forest as if it were plains. You gain a +2 insight bonus on Wilderness Lore and Climb checks. You ignore 5 points of fire damage as though under a permanent endure elements effect. Additionally, you gain a competence bonus on attack rolls against any creature that has "forest" listed in the Climate/ Terrain section of it's statistics. This bonus is equal to one-fourth your character level (round down).

This feat is conversion of a Masters of the Wild PrC, the King/Queen of the Wild.

5) Prestige Feats and Spells are universal, and do not require the PC to learn a seperate class. Additionally, they are more flexible and easier to tone down or discard in an active PC than a PrC.

6) I am of the mindset that a PC must learn a PrC from somewhere (it seems to be the whole point of a PrC), while a Prestige feat, skill or spell could or could not be self taught. (I don't know why this is. Maybe the DMG description of a PrC impressed this idea upon me.)

7) I am not saying that the class system is wrong. I am saying that there shouldn't be a class for everything and that those classes shouldn't overshadow the classes in the PHB or other basic classes, such as the Samarai in OA.

8) I do not believe classes should be applied to specific in-game guilds, organizations, mentors, and orders of knowledge because classes are metagame knowledge. When an NPC refers to himself as a Knight of the Blah, they could and should be able to be a level X fighter with a certain outlook who pays his dues and learns some neat, specialized fighting abilities, not necessarily a PrC.

9) I dislike that when someone quits being a member of an order, guild or organization, etc... that character cannot get rid of the PrC class and the PrC abilities can go away.

10) Just because something is an option, does not necessarily mean it's a good option, IMHO.

Okay, that is it from me. I will read your posts, of course, and take what people say seriously, but I would prefer not to get into a full-blown argument over this because it is more about personal preference and assumptions than anything else.

 

[King_Stannis]

So I take you didn't care much for any of the ones in Relics and Rituals or perhaps the ones like the Unfailing in Hollowfaust? *is just curious since I know you like SL but I am curious about your feelings toward SL prestige classes....

honestly, nightfall, i don't even like the SL ones. and to be truthful, i think there should be about 5 PrC's and that's it. i'd keep the assassin, the blackguard and the shadowdancer. maybe a few others. that way, if someone actually met one of those characters or if one of my players wanted to become one, it would mean a little more.

of course i know i am free to ignore them, but it's like anything. with overexposure, their coolness definitely goes down. but, as i said, YMMV. i'm just a crotchety old stick-in-the-mud!

 

[Crutchie]

Do the above question on how he justified it was:
"He went through time travel so he forgot about it....now he remember it"(ditto for grenades and antimatter rifle)

lol thats what i call roleplaying(jk)

 

[bwgwl]

The level 1 fighter in question does not know the requirements to become a chibby chub because 1) this is metagame knowledge 2) he has never seen one, nor known their entrance requirements (if there is a guild) or 3) does not know (if self-trained) the precise steps required to become a PrC.

while i like your idea of prestige feats and such, i wanted to specifically comment on the quote above.

1. metagame knowledge -- i can sort of buy that argument, but not in every case. sometimes that level1 character is going to know, in-game, what the requirements are for a PrClass. and in that case, it's not metagaming for the PC to plan it out from L1.

2. never seen one -- who says? maybe the character's father was a chibby chub, or his uncle, or his neighbor, or maybe there was a guild of chibby chubs in his hometown, or maybe a traveling chibby chub passed through a few years ago and inspired him.

if the Knights of the Rising Hodge are a prestige class, and the Knights of the Rising Hodge have been defending the duchy of Upper Fnordia for generations, then a L1 character from Upper Fnordia who has been dreaming of joining the Knights of the Rising Hodge his whole life is going to know very well what the requirements for entry are, and what he needs to accomplish and be capable of before being allowed to join.

if the PrClass is an organization that exists in the world, there will most likely be a body of common knowledge about that organization that exists that PCs will know. thus, they should indeed be able to plan their skill and feat purchases with the PrClass in mind from L1 (should they so desire) and i don't see that as metagame thinking at all.

also, i think i may have a different conception of organization-based PrClasses. just because an organization offers a PrClass, doesn't mean every member of that organization has levels in it.

for example, in a thieves' guild that offers a PrClass that requires you to be a 6th level rogue to qualify for, there will most definitely be members who are 1st-5th level rogues. these rogues obviously won't have access to the PrClass, but will be very well-informed about the requirements, as they know what they need to be capable of in order to "move up the ranks" in the organization.

3. i see your point here -- for self-trained PrClasses.

on a positive note, i definitely agree with the notion that PrClass should be the DM's purview and not the publisher's -- except in published settings. generic products should not have PrClasses, because, IMO, all PrClasses should be setting-specific.

i like the idea of your Prestige Feats but i still see the need for PrClasses. Prestige Feats would be good if you only wanted to give one special or unique ability to a character, because of the relative scarcity of feats. PrClasses are good when there's a small handful of unique abilities that fit well together as a common theme, that are usually found in the same individuals.

 

[jasamcarl]

Uh, Budha...

Perhaps you can fill me in on your definition of 'good' game. Mine was one that rewards a wide variety of INGAME results in a balanced fashion. Again, yours seems to be one that provides a certain mechanic which you like to look at. Prcs and feats can coexist because they allow for different DEGREES of specialization while maintaing balance. Your refutation of Prcs amount to little more than a refutation of the class system, with all its benefits and drawbacks, but only illogically applying it to Prcs..come back with a proper argument please...

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

The level 1 fighter in question does not know the requirements to become a chibby chub because 1) this is metagame knowledge 2) he has never seen one, nor known their entrance requirements (if there is a guild) or 3) does not know (if self-trained) the precise steps required to become a PrC.

I do not see any basis for any of this.

You are forcing the Class to be a concrete thing rather than an abstract concept. I don't see that the chibby chub would even have to know that he was a chibby chub. I find your thinking to be a worse example of metagame. The idea of "entrance" is metagame.

To stay with the lasher idea rather than the undefined chibby chub, the prereqs strike me as obvious things that someone devoted to learning to fight with a whip would do. The character does not think "Gee, I have a BAB of 5+ and these other prereqs that guy told me I needed, now I can be a Lasher and not draw attacks of opportunity. Yeah Me." I see it as the guy is dedicated to fighting with the whip. Eventually he gets so good that he gains the close combat ability. There is no "entrance" or sudden dramatic shift as you seem to demand. It is just a natural progression.

Everything you listed implies that the character understands what a prerequisite is, what a class is, what a level is. All completely metagame ideas.

The difference I make here between feats, skills and spells, and PrCs is that I believe only a few of the former are unbalanced, while all of the latter are. Hence why I dropped PrCs.

<snip>

4) Prestige Feats should be more powerful than normal feats. Example: If I wanted to make a PFeat, it might look something like this:

Forest Master [General]

You are a at home within a forest.
Prerequisites: Base Fortitude Save Bonus +6, Wilderness Lore 12+ ranks, Hide 6+ ranks, Endurance, Track
Benefits: You can move overland through a forest as if it were plains. You gain a +2 insight bonus on Wilderness Lore and Climb checks. You ignore 5 points of fire damage as though under a permanent endure elements effect. Additionally, you gain a competence bonus on attack rolls against any creature that has "forest" listed in the Climate/ Terrain section of it's statistics. This bonus is equal to one-fourth your character level (round down).

This feat is conversion of a Masters of the Wild PrC, the King/Queen of the Wild.

Ok, so PClasses are broken, and feats are not. Then you show me this feat that does not come close to replacing the class and is still completely broken.

????

5) Prestige Feats and Spells are universal, and do not require the PC to learn a seperate class. Additionally, they are more flexible and easier to tone down or discard in an active PC than a PrC.

I don't see anything that makes one bit of the second sentence true.
And I have not seen any reason for separate classes being a bad thing. What makes Fighter8/Lasher2 less valid than Fighter8/Rogue2 or Fighter10? You complain about metagame thinking, but you are the one worrying about the 100% metagame concept of classes.

6) I am of the mindset that a PC must learn a PrC from somewhere (it seems to be the whole point of a PrC), while a Prestige feat, skill or spell could or could not be self taught. (I don't know why this is. Maybe the DMG description of a PrC impressed this idea upon me.)

This is still your arbitrary addition to the concept.
Can Weapon Specialization: Whip be self taught? Why or why not? How does the fighter know he needs weapon focus as a prereq without metagame thinking?

How does a character know they have changed classes?

I could be of the mindset that divine spells can only be cast while standing on your head and dropping superglue in your nose. That would make me think that divine spells were not good.

7) I am not saying that the class system is wrong. I am saying that there shouldn't be a class for everything and that those classes shouldn't overshadow the classes in the PHB or other basic classes, such as the Samarai in OA.

Who says they overshadow them? Who says there is a class for everything? What does the Samurai have to do with anything?

8) I do not believe classes should be applied to specific in-game guilds, organizations, mentors, and orders of knowledge because classes are metagame knowledge. When an NPC refers to himself as a Knight of the Blah, they could and should be able to be a level X fighter with a certain outlook who pays his dues and learns some neat, specialized fighting abilities, not necessarily a PrC.

Why? Who says a Fighter X can't be a Knight of Blah? Who says all member of the Order of the Bow must take the Order of the Bow Initiate PClass?

9) I dislike that when someone quits being a member of an order, guild or organization, etc... that character cannot get rid of the PrC class and the PrC abilities can go away.

???? Depends on the class. Are you saying if an Order of the Bow intiate quits the order he should suddenly forget some of his skills with the bow?

10) Just because something is an option, does not necessarily mean it's a good option, IMHO.

So??? I don't see any reason for you to include IMHO in that line. I also don't see how this statement is at all relevant to whether PClasses are a good option or not

I'll end with a comment that you are using the term metagame as a complaint A LOT, yet it is clear to me that if you would simply let go of your own deluge of metagame thinking, 99% of your concerns would go away.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Re: Uh, Budha...

Perhaps you can fill me in on your definition of 'good' game. Mine was one that rewards a wide variety of INGAME results in a balanced fashion. Again, yours seems to be one that provides a certain mechanic which you like to look at. Prcs and feats can coexist because they allow for different DEGREES of specialization while maintaing balance. Your refutation of Prcs amount to little more than a refutation of the class system, with all its benefits and drawbacks, but only illogically applying it to Prcs..come back with a proper argument please...

I completely agree with you.

He seems to be completely hung up on the metagame concepts and bean counting.

And, as you point out, by his logic it should be impossible for a fighter to take a level of rogue and gain sneak attack +1d6, because that would be meta-game. How else would he know to take the class?

In my view, if the fighter was using any tactics that fight with the sneak attack idea, it would only be natural for him to take a level of rogue along the way. He would not know that he was a fighter6/Rogue 1 and his buddy is a fighter7. He would just know that his buddy was a little bit more solid in a straight up fight, but not quite as good at getting in that perfect shot at just the right time.

 

[Archer]

I liked it better when the discussion was about which were the goofiest prestige classes instead of arguing that the very concept of a prestige class was the worst thing ever created.

Prestige classes (and fighting styles) are about synergy. If you do x, y, and z then you get special bonus z+. Feat chains do this a little but prestige classes take it to a new step. If everything was a feat then fighters would just pick the best class abilities of every class.

Players typically enjoy prestige classes, it makes them feel more important. Why do a lot of DMs want to always crush their players underfoot with impossible challenges and taking away all their stuff that they love?

You can certainly customize every character in your campaign but a lot of us would rather have some standardized packages that we could use to discuss our games with other people and have them understand what we are talking about.

 

[Psion]

The milkmaid PrC!

(see:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?threadid=4843&perpage=20&pagenumber=9

Scroll down to mytholder's post. It's worth a laugh.)

 

[River]

I'd say the Dragon Disciple (version 3.0 -- after the Sage flip-flopped twice) kind of sucks. Giving up ten spellcasting levels for a clerical BAB and a half-dragon template seems pretty weak.

Fools! You're all fools! Muhahahaha!

The Dragon Disciple isn't a Sorcerer Prestiege class its a Fighter Prestiege class for fighters who took 1 level of Sorcerer!!!!!

The Dragon Disciple is a crushing machine!


River