The worst Warriors

[DrSkull]

For my campaign, I like to have pre-made stats for a lot of average warrior types that the players might run into. These warriors are from the warrior NPC class, and have average stats for their race (i.e., base of 10 or 11 for each ability score modified by their racial adjustments).

From testing them out in practice, I think I've found that the worst warriors are Gray Elves. Having both a -2 Str and -2 Con make them really stink in a stand-up fight. The higher the level you go, the worse the gray elves become, because of the hit point loss.

I've also discovered that Toughness feat is really pretty good for human warriors to choose for their free human bonus feat. That extra 3 hit points let's them hold up longer.

Has anyone else had any experience with how various races do in the various NPC classes?

 

[Romotre]

Wood elves are pretty good warriors. +2 Str and Dex, -2 Con, Int, and Cha. The Int and Cha doesn't really matter to them. Give em the toughness feat to make up for the HP loss.

 

[Celebrim]

There are Grey Elf warriors?

I thought they were all wizards, bards, and sorcerers?

You just think that they are warriors because they are all armed with longbows, but won't you be suprised when each of them casts Sleep as you charge into range.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Dwarves make the best warriors: +2 Con and extra resistance to Poison and Magic. Real-world medieval armies faced just as much danger from disease and exhaustion (heat stroke, long marches) as they did from the enemy. The extra HP and saving throw bonus make dwarves better able to resist such damage.

 

[DrSkull]

There are Grey Elf warriors?

I thought they were all wizards, bards, and sorcerers?

You just think that they are warriors because they are all armed with longbows, but won't you be suprised when each of them casts Sleep as you charge into range.

Remember, I'm talking average NPC's, with 10-11 in all attributes, adjusted for race. And when I say "warrior" I mean "Warrior NPC class" not fighter, barbarian, paladin or ranger.

Most ordinary Gray Elves will have a 10-11 CHA, so they'd be piss poor bards or sorcerers. Their INT is 12-13 so they'd be all right as wizards, but their hit points would then be really pathetic (1d4-1 per level). You have to have someone to protect the wizards.

Romotre is right, I've found that Wood Elves aren't too bad. If you have to have elves, take Wood Elves, if you can't get them, take High Elves, and if you've got no choice at all I guess you have to take Gray Elves.

Still, I think I'd rather go with a human, dwarvish, gnomish or halfling set of warrior guards.

Of, course Orcs and Hobgoblins really pack a nice punch too.

I guess what I'm getting at is that in the type of game I play, the CON penalty is really a killer for average mookish elves.

 

[S'mon]

My campaign world is pretty much humans and goblinoids only as far as everyday mooks go. For the typical human War1 heavy infantry, Toughness is a must-have feat: 7hp instead of 4hp makes a huge difference to their survivability - not that they last long again PCs or Ettins, but against orcs and especially (hob)goblins it's very handy.

 

[Forrester]

Whew!

I was getting worried there. I saw the thread name, and I figured it was another rant on how much monks suck.

By the way, I tend to give even NPC warriors +2 to Str, Dex, and Con -- or at least Str. You'd expect soldiers to be a little above average on those stats, methinks.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Whew!

I was getting worried there. I saw the thread name, and I figured it was another rant on how much monks suck.

By the way, I tend to give even NPC warriors +2 to Str, Dex, and Con -- or at least Str. You'd expect soldiers to be a little above average on those stats, methinks.

Hm - if you use MM hobgoblins with STR 11, it's hard to justify the equivalent humans with STR 12+. The 10-11 norm seems to be for fit young males, not for a random cross-section of the mostly non-combatant population.

 

[Celebrim]

Dr Skull: My point was that if in fact they are far inferior to other races as warriors, then they will probably never (or almost never) be warriors. Instead of fielding armies of war1's, they are almost certainly fielding armies that are almost entirely composed of wizards. Otherwise, they would have gone extinct - with no chance of surviving even the first Orc invasion.

If the average grey elf is STR 8, DEX 12, CON 8, INT 12, WIS 10, CHR 10 plus 1 more point in each of three different stats (because the average of 3d6 is 10.5 not 10), then he is not going to bother with warrior training any more than you would as a PC make this a warrior. They are going to rely on stealth (dex bonus + no armor penalty), partial cover, good planning (high intelligence), spells like sleep and color spray, and thier natural affinity for bows. They are not going to go head to head with anyone, because all the grey elves that use that strategy died centuries ago. AND, they are probably feared despite having 2 h.p. each, because sleep is pretty darn powerful if you are a band of 30 or so 1st level warriors and its cast at you 15 or 20 times by the band of elfin defenders.

S'mon: I too tend to modify the stats of NPC humans (especially) - and to a lesser extent all PC races - ever so slightly, by taking a point from here and putting it there so that they are more suited to thier occupation. For instance, average city gaurds in my campaign can be expected to be something like STR 13, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 9, CHR 8. You can justify this by noting that the population of the PC races (humans in particular) is alot higher than the population of say, Hobgoblins. The average Hobgoblin warrior probably does represent the broad cross section of his race because a far greater proportion of his race (in most campaigns) is given over to warriors. On the other hand, maybe something less than 1:30 humans in a civilized area is a professional warrior so the humans can afford to be a little more choosy and specialized. And, even among Hobgoblins, I'm inclined to trade a few points around at times. For instance, I might make half the hobgoblins archers and shift points into Dex to give them an extra +1 bonus to dex (at the cost of perhaps strength), and maybe make some of them swordsmen and shift points into Str (at the cost of perhaps dex).

 

[Zaruthustran]

Dr Skull: My point was that if in fact they are far inferior to other races as warriors, then they will probably never (or almost never) be warriors. Instead of fielding armies of war1's, they are almost certainly fielding armies that are almost entirely composed of wizards. Otherwise, they would have gone extinct - with no chance of surviving even the first Orc invasion.

If the average grey elf is STR 8, DEX 12, CON 8, INT 12, WIS 10, CHR 10 plus 1 more point in each of three different stats (because the average of 3d6 is 10.5 not 10), then he is not going to bother with warrior training any more than you would as a PC make this a warrior. They are going to rely on stealth (dex bonus + no armor penalty), partial cover, good planning (high intelligence), spells like sleep and color spray, and thier natural affinity for bows. They are not going to go head to head with anyone, because all the grey elves that use that strategy died centuries ago.

Why do you assume that just because grey elf warriors would never go toe to toe, there would never be grey elf warriors? Seems to me that there'd be plenty of warriors--they'd just be warriors with (as you say) bows. And if you look at any common fantasy literature, that's exactly what elves are: hit and fade artists, shooting from the trees. High Int + High Dex = useful skills like Hide and Wilderness Lore. Of course a Grey Elf Warrior would have a slightly different skill list than the standard Warrior.

I mean, you wouldn't expect a Human Warrior to be anything like a Halfling Warrior, would you? Of course each race's Warriors would take advantage of that particular race's advantages.

Also: Wizard is a PC class. It is not meant to be a class for the masses. Rules-wise, nothing's stopping you, but I got the impression that PC classes are extremely special/rare, and that NPC classes were to be used for groups of ordinary people. You can do whatever you want in your own campaign, obviously. Just saying that in my interpretaion of the rules, the Wizard class is restricted to PCs and important NPCs--there aren't supposed to be platoons of spellcasters. If you want that, use Adepts. Or create a new NPC spellcasting class just for Grey Elves, and make sure to balance it against other NPC classes--not other PC classes.

-z