The WOW method to monsters? Would you hate it?

[Jürgen Hubert]

And with good reason; the game would break down and the PCs would be walking gods. This is proven every time a DM says he doesn't like high level games because of "verisimilitude" or its not "gritty" enough, or there is too much reliance on magical widgets and so on and so forth.

In other words, they don't like DMing high level games because the characters at high levels with their magical gear and such, are too powerful in comparison to baseline monsters, NPCs, or assumed magic level of the campaign world. And they are right, of course.

You are then faced with two solutions. Either limit your game to low-level, low-power, and low-magic (and in my opinion, low-fun). Or embrace high levels, let the PCs reach for the stars and simply level up the monsters to match.

Adding levels to monsters and NPCs is a natural solution, and it keeps D&D fun and challenging for both players and DMs on into high and even epic levels.

I'm not against PCs fighting high-level NPCs and monsters. But their antagonists should seem special. Just throwing Yet Another Tribe of 12th level gnolls at them is simply uninventive. They should face the elite assassins of an evil secret society, mages who send demons after them, and other people and beings that ordinary people should shudder to even think about. But the PCs will attract them despite their rarity because the PCs are the only ones who could stop their nefarious plans!

Simply increasing the levels of all "ordinary" monsters and humanoids to high levels to keep up with the PCs still makes them "ordinary" monsters. And the enemies high-level PCs encounter should be anything but ordinary!

 

[Gundark]

Um...no. If I'm a seventh-dan black belt kenjutsu master, I certainly know my own skill level. And if the low level town is filled with untrained peasants, I certainly know that I could slaughter dozens of them with relative ease.

PCs and NPCs in a D&D campaign may not use the metagame concept of "levels" to express their prowess, but they can certainly judge how skilled they are, and make somewhat accurate assessments of how skilled others are, based on gathered information.

That said, I'd expect the 12th-level gnolls to be well-aware that the low-level town is easy pickings for raiders of their ferocity.

I don't know about that, my friend belongs to a medevil fighting club (they wear armour and beat each other with sticks). My friend is talented at this however he has no concept of what "level" he is. Neither would he know what level anyone that he faced off against would be, he might know something about the person's skill level but that is about it. Perceived skill level is all subjective, we all can probably think of someone who thought they were much better than they really were (and visa versa). So even if the Gnolls thought they were talented fighters they may or may not think that they are more talented that the human town down the way. Again Not unless they have tested the towns defense previously they would have no clue.

I'm kinda surprised that people are having such a hard time with the idea of a tribe of 9th level gnolls but would have no problem with a tribe of frost giants. They are the same CR and a tribe of frost giants could level a town just as easily.

I can see what people are saying, I was struggling with that concept myself (whole suspension of belief thing) that's why I created this thread. So far with a few exceptions (James Jacobs notably) I have not really seen a really good arguement why it sucks. In the end I'll probably stick to what I have been doing (which is what most others have been doing with their gnolls/orcs/goblins), as I will be picking up some new players this fall when we start up again and don't know where they stand

 

[Gundark]

I would place myself as a 3rd level expert for example,

Since I'm a 5th level expert that makes my opinion right and you wrong

 

[TheAuldGrump]

How many ranks did you put in Craft (opinion)? Plus I have Skill Focus - Craft (opinion), so I may actually have a higher total bonus than you.

The Auld Grump, many years of dedication to crafting opinions...

 

[D+1]

Why is there a need to explain why Gnolls and other humanoids can gain levels? If humans and other player races can do it so can the monsters.

I've been using levelled humanoids since 3.0 was released. Its one of the better aspects of the third edition rules.

It isn't a matter of explaining why they exist at all as multi-level creatures, but how they are presented throughout the entire lifespan of the campaign. In other words if you DO have as many 15th level gnolls as 1st level gnolls in your campaign world (because 15th level PC's are fighting just as many now as they fought 1st level gnolls when they were 1st level PC's) then where were those 15th level gnolls when the PC's WERE 1st level? How did they influence the campaign as the players gained levels. If the gnolls gained levels at the same time and same rate as the PC's how or why did that happen? Did it happen for other humanoids as well? Why/why not?

If creatures like gnolls are going to remain a consistent, continual threat as the PC's advance in levels then there should be an explanation within the structure of the campaign setting for that to be happening.