The xp thing again.

[Treebore]

Explain this to me and I think I will finally feel like I understand how the xp award system works. Does the EL in any way adjust how much a given monster is worth in an encounter?

For example, if the creature is normally a CR 1 and you use a bunch of them to up the EL to equal the party, does that change the individual creatures CR/xp value for that encounter? Or is it still considered a CR1 creature and xp's are awarded as such?

If you could give specific rules citations or point me to the specifics that clarify this, I would greatly appreciate it.

Just to let you know, if I just read the xp awards part of the rules it sounds like the creature would be a CR1, irregardless. When I read the CR/EL material later in the DMG, that is when I start getting confused about the CR/xp value becoming higher.

 

[Philip]

Short answer:

- The EL does not adjust the XP of an encounter.
- XP is calculated from CR's only

Long answer:

You can define EL as the sum of its constituent CR's. In most cases the XP for the either the EL or for the separate CR's comes down to the same amount.

For example: two CR 12 creatures form a EL 14 encounter. Each CR 12 creature nets a 12th lvl party 3600 XP, so 7200 XP total. If you look at the CR 14 column you see that it also says 7200 XP, the XP a 12th lvl party would get for a CR 14 creature. So EL XP == CR XP.

Sometimes the values do not match exactly due to:
- rounding issues
- slightly different calculation of XP from CR in the first few levels
- encounters that contain creatures with a CR that is above or below the 'no XP' threshold (the * and **'s on page 38 of the DMG)

So EL is just a convenient way of totaling the separate CR's from one encounter in an easy to read number. And an EL can contain monster CR's, trap CR's and special enviromental adjustments (a swinging bridge over lava raising the EL of the encounter by +1, for example).

 

[Treebore]

OK, sounds like I finally get it. Seemed so much more complicated than that.

 

[Tatsukun]

..of course, in my less than humble opinion, EL should effect Exp.

If you fight a CR 5 monster you get some Exp. If you fight that same monster in difficult conditions (let's say EL 7) it's harder, and you should get more Exp.

Also, treasure is, for some reason, based on EL. So if you have a CR 5 monster, who gets the drop on a group of PC's it also suddenly gets more treasure!

I think these things are backwards. If the fight is harder (or easier) you should get more (or less) Exp. But even if the monster has the best (or worse) advantage on you in a fight, it should still have the same about of gear it had in the morning.

This is odd…

Oog the ogre said to Grog the ogre "Hey Grog, my money pouch just got a lot heavier! There's like 1,200 extra gold in here"

Grog replied "Cool, I we must be about to stumble into a camp of sleeping PC's, with no guard! Yeah!"

-Tatsu

 

[Darkness]

..of course, in my less than humble opinion, EL should effect Exp.

If you fight a CR 5 monster you get some Exp. If you fight that same monster in difficult conditions (let's say EL 7) it's harder, and you should get more Exp.

You do get more XP. Circumstances that modify EL also modify XP Awards (DMG, p.39).

There's also a variant rule on the same page, Free-Form Experience, that bases XP solely on the relative difficulty of an entire encounter.

 

[dcollins]

Very well said, Philip.

 

[Treebore]

OK, your confusing me again. Does a CR creature (or CR2, CR3, etc..) used in a higher EL encounter get a higher award? Or is it only higher IF, stress the IF, the DM decides to adjust the xp award based on difficulty?

Reading the FAQ at WOTC, pp 43 and 44, seems to indicate it would not, unless the xp award is adjusted by the DM's opinion of difficulty.

Tatsukan,

I agree with you, which is probably why I have trouble interpreting the wording of the rules. I may be wanting it to say it does, because that would make sense to me as well, but the reality is the wording says no, I think. I definitely have found no wording that conclusively and clearly states it one way or the other. Just ambiguously enough that it could be interpreted either way.

 

[dcollins]

See the "Modifying Encounter Levels" table in the DMG. If the DM decides that an encounter is more difficult than usual due to some circumstance, then the XP award goes up AND the EL goes up. The two are still effectively equivalent whichever you use for the award.

 

[Kashell]

Having a group of orges attacking a party in the middle of a forest would be a pretty normal EL level.




Having the same group of orges pushing rocks off of a cliff at the PC's who are on a very thin path on the side of a volcano where falling off means falling in lava is a whole 'nother deal.

 

[Silveras]

I think it is counter-productive to talk about "equivalents" when someone is asking whether they have the basics down right.

CR is a measure of the creature's threat level to a "standard party" (4 characters, same levels, 1 each of Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, and Cleric).

EL is a measure of how dangerous an encounter is to the "standard party".

When there is 1 creature in the encounter, the Encounter level is equal to the CR of the creature.

When there are multiple creatures in the Encounter, the EL is increased to reflect the additional threat.

XP is awarded based on the CR of the creatures involved, on a character-by-character basis, based on that character's level and divided by the number of characters present.

Example: A party of 4 characters, Ftr 5, Clr 5, Rog 6, and Wiz 5 meets a CR 3 monster.
XP awards are:
Fighter 5: 750 (from the table)/4 (# characters in the party) = 187.5
Cleric 5: 750 / 4 = 187.5
Rogue 6: 600/4 = 150
Wizard 5: 750/4 = 187.5

Treasure is 1x EL3 treasure

The EL is 3 (1 CR3 creature)

If the party had met an encounter with 2 CR 3 monsters, the EL would be 5 (2 CR3 creatures = EL 5)
XP awards are:
Fighter 5: 1500 (2x CR 3 xp from table) / 4 (# characters in the party) = 375
Cleric 5: 1500 / 4 = 375
Rogue 6: 1200/4 = 300
Wizard 5: 1500/4 = 375

Treasure is 1x EL 5 treasure

If the location where the encounter took place also had some feature that made the encounter harder or easier ... say, facing Frost Giants while inside a volcano (easier) or inside a glacier with lots of loose ice boulders for them to throw (harder), the DM is expected to adjust the XP and EL (which influences the treasure) appropriately.

Note that, as the DMG points out, PC choices and bad die rolls should not modify the XP or EL of the encounter. The EL of the encounter is usually set when the DM creates it, based on how s/he set it up.