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Themes and Feats

Ellington

First Post
In the most recent Rule of Three blog post, themes were basically confirmed to be a package of feats. Flavorful packages, sure, but packages nevertheless. Given the way themes have been described so far, they'll be a big part in how your character plays out in and out of combat. This basically means that feats will be a big factor in how your character behaves in combat, and I'm not sure that's for the best.

Feats are supposed to be a way to sculpt your character as it grows stronger, and they can offer a lot of flavor to mechanically represent certain character traits, such as the stubborn character can resist mind affecting spells more readily or the bookworm character who has a knack for lore related checks. However, in the past, not all feats have been directly related to your character as such. Cleave and Whirlwind Attack, as they were handled in 3.5, weren't really a part of your character but rather maneuvers it could perform in combat. To make them worthwhile these maneuver feats made your character better in combat (at least in theory). This is a pretty big issue I had with 3.5.

Fighters and other martial classes had to expend a resource that could otherwise have been spent on giving your character flavor. The fighter that wanted to take a feat that would allow him to perform a certain skill better or represent a character trait of his was presented with a hard choice: Should I choose the flavorful choice and be worse at my primary job, combat, or should I take the combat feat and continue to do my job well? From my experience, the martial classes usually went with the latter. I can't remember any fighters that took Alertness over something like Power Attack or Cleave. Making the former choice a number of times could leave you with a mechanically bad character. Spellcasters didn't have this problem. They gained spells every level as a part of their natural progression and could spend feats on whatever they wanted. Even though some feats were better than others mechanically it didn't matter as much in the grand scheme of things. Most of their power came from their class progression.

Even though I didn't play much of it, 4th edition seemed to handle this differently and better in my opinion. Powers were a part of each character's natural progression and feats were the gravy on top. I may have some issues with individual powers and I don't agree with their distribution, but in essence I like the idea that they come naturally with character progression and you don't sacrifice anything to get them.

I'm worried that we might face the same problem in 5E as we did in 3E: characters having to sacrifice interesting options to be able to live up to their potential in combat, because in the end I fear that most people will choose the latter. I don't want players to have to spend the same resource (feats) on both characteristics/quirks for their characters and maneuvers to use in combat. Basically what I'd like to see is

Feats split into different resources: One for characteristic traits and one for combat abilities. You could even tie this in to backgrounds/themes. Your background represents your character and how he grows, but your theme represents the abilities he can perform, in and out of combat. You wouldn't sacrifice the progression your character or his abilities for the other: they'd grow independently.

And I guess that's that. I'd love to hear other people's take on themes as we understand them so far and why you like or dislike how they're being handled.
 
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Gargoyle

Adventurer
Pillars and Silos

It would be nice to see customization silos for mechanics for each of the three pillars of play. What I'd like to see are multiple theme packages:

Combat themes: Nothing but feats that deal with combat.
Exploration themes: Skills and Feats that enhance skills.
Roleplaying themes: Backgrounds (but no skill bonuses) and things like titles, memberships in campaign factions, stuff like the Duke owes me a favor, NO GAME MECHANICS. Other games might call things like perks or bennies.

As you level up, you would gain each of these types of themes at different levels, adding layers to each pillar.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
I think my greatest fear is that characters go back to being a huge pile of tiny fiddly bits that gets larger as you level. A small pile of larger fiddly bits is okay (with spell lists adding more). However, making a mid or high level npc or modifying a monster in 3.x was far more work than it was worth.

Although, I like the idea of themes and backgrounds in general, I don't like the idea that a theme means "Look, we've packaged up these 4 feats and stuck a name on it." and nothing else. I'm okay with that being there, but I'd also like options for themes that are more like "Okay, you don't get feats, but this scaling ability takes their place."

Other than that, its hard to say without seeing the things. Where art thou May 24?
 

Kzach

Banned
Banned
It would be nice to see customization silos for mechanics for each of the three pillars of play. What I'd like to see are multiple theme packages:

Combat themes: Nothing but feats that deal with combat.
Exploration themes: Skills and Feats that enhance skills.
Roleplaying themes: Backgrounds (but no skill bonuses) and things like titles, memberships in campaign factions, stuff like the Duke owes me a favor, NO GAME MECHANICS. Other games might call things like perks or bennies.
Egads!

I really hope this ISN'T the case. This would invalidate all they said about characters being equally effective in combat, exploration and roleplaying. This type of specialisation also leads to huge disparities in character power and powergaming.
 

Gargoyle

Adventurer
Egads!

I really hope this ISN'T the case. This would invalidate all they said about characters being equally effective in combat, exploration and roleplaying. This type of specialisation also leads to huge disparities in character power and powergaming.

I think you misunderstand. With three separate silos you wouldn't have to choose between these. You'd get options in each category. Sorry I wasn't very clear about that.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Egads!

I really hope this ISN'T the case. This would invalidate all they said about characters being equally effective in combat, exploration and roleplaying. This type of specialisation also leads to huge disparities in character power and powergaming.

Yup. I'd much rather see, on average, themes include one feat from each of the three pillars... rather than themes made up of three feats all from the same pillar.

You do that, then each theme helps all aspects of a character in all aspects of the game. The only thing you then watch out for is in the 'build-your-own-theme' rules... and if you are able to pick up all feats from a single pillar that that doesn't overpower said character in that pillar while simultaneously gimp him in the other two. Hopefully feats wouldn't be so powerful that that would occur.
 

dkyle

First Post
It would be nice to see customization silos for mechanics for each of the three pillars of play. What I'd like to see are multiple theme packages:

Combat themes: Nothing but feats that deal with combat.
Exploration themes: Skills and Feats that enhance skills.
Roleplaying themes: Backgrounds (but no skill bonuses) and things like titles, memberships in campaign factions, stuff like the Duke owes me a favor, NO GAME MECHANICS. Other games might call things like perks or bennies.

As you level up, you would gain each of these types of themes at different levels, adding layers to each pillar.

By different levels, do you mean interleaved together? Like, 1, 4, 7, 10, etc, for Combat, 2, 5, 8, 11, etc, for Exploration, and 3, 6, 9, 12, etc, for Roleplaying? That would be OK, I guess. But putting them in chunks of levels (which is what we've been told themes are, currently) would be bad. It means spending a lot of time being terrible at an entire pillar (or two) of the game.

Also, I'm not on board with no mechanics for the Roleplaying themes. If it has absolutely no expression in mechanics, then it doesn't really mean anything.


What I'd really prefer is that Theme be almost entirely about combat capabilities, while Background is Exploration and Interaction, with "Skills" not just being the usual skills, but more like non-combat feats.
 

Zireael

Explorer
I want themes to support each of the pillars equally. So, one feat per pillar. And if themes should improve, they should improve upon advancing a tier, not in some different way.
 

dkyle

First Post
I want themes to support each of the pillars equally. So, one feat per pillar. And if themes should improve, they should improve upon advancing a tier, not in some different way.

One issue I have with that is I want a lot of freedom to mix-and-match how my character approaches each pillar. If every Theme has stuff in every pillar, that's a pretty big limitation. I don't think it's helpful to have such strong ties between fighting-style, exploration abilities, and interaction abilities.

Basically, I'd prefer a "pick something for each Pillar", than a "pick something, it says what you can do in each Pillar". A strong swordsman who intimidates people should be an equal option to a strong swordsman with a silver tongue.
 

Gargoyle

Adventurer
By different levels, do you mean interleaved together? Like, 1, 4, 7, 10, etc, for Combat, 2, 5, 8, 11, etc, for Exploration, and 3, 6, 9, 12, etc, for Roleplaying? That would be OK, I guess. But putting them in chunks of levels (which is what we've been told themes are, currently) would be bad. It means spending a lot of time being terrible at an entire pillar (or two) of the game.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Also, I'm not on board with no mechanics for the Roleplaying themes. If it has absolutely no expression in mechanics, then it doesn't really mean anything.


What I'd really prefer is that Theme be almost entirely about combat capabilities, while Background is Exploration and Interaction, with "Skills" not just being the usual skills, but more like non-combat feats.

I'd be ok with that too. And now that I think about it more I really don't think D&D needs roleplaying themes with or without game mechanics anyway. Roleplaying should just happen without too much rules, and not be forced down people's throats.

No matter how they do it, they really do need to fix the issue that the OP points out though: Make it so that we don't have to choose between being good at one pillar or another with our characters.
 

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