Theocracy vs. Magocracy: who would win?

[The Furious Puffin]

Re: Time Stop

Time Stop has some clarifications posted within the living city campaign world.

Basically Time Stop cannot be used with offensive spells like fireball.

Also you cannot persist time stop because it has been errata’s to instantaneous effect with d4+1 duration.

A) Living City doesn't apply here Living greyhawk banned polymorph other - but I suspect that still works here ;-)

b) huh?

From the SRD

While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to the character's attacks and spells; however, the character can create spell effects and leave them to take effect when the time stop spell ends. (The spells’ durations do not begin until the time stop is over.)

What exactly is stoping me creating the bead that is made with fireball and leaving it to take effect?

c) Can you give me a URL? I just check Version 2.0 of the PHB errata and no metion of timestop was made.

As such the 10/10 Wizard/Incantrix technique still rules the roast (Sic) ;-)

On the small unit large unit thing I suspect it is a cast of damned if you do and damned if you don't. If I order my men to group up a fireball will kill them, but in small groups they are easy prey to cavalry.

I suspect any sort of D&D war will bare little relationship to a historical war, simiply due to the bizarre *people* created by the D&D rules. - For example if you could round up a collection of shifters get them all to polymorph into Terrasques you would have a strike team capable of destorying any *mundane* D&D army.

I suspect that only the big players would really matter in any such war.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Somewhere explained that real artillery like weapons weren`t inveted for the 17th century, so it is plausible that a D&D society won`t have it, either. But if I remember correctly, hit and run tactics weren`t "invented" (or at least not commonly used) at that time, either. So, may be the idea of a teleporting time stopping hitandrund wizard isn`t a "realistic" one?
Remember, the romans could have had steam engines - but they did not further develop it. (Just think of it! Railways around the year 0! Steamships crossing the world!)

Another thing: How many other countries or "archies" are around?

Remember, nearly all divine spell casting classes (Cleric, Paladin, Druid) do have Diplomacy as a class skill. This means, they will have many diplomats, and perhaps many friends out there.
Imagine, some "missionars" would go out in the wild lands, "hiring" tribes of orc barbarians, contacting giants and so on.
This probably won`t help if the magocracy attacks surprisingly fast, but if there are enough survivors, there might be a revenge.

A further thing to consider is, how long the magocracy can really "hold" the people. If the mages are not good (better: lawful good), there is a chance that some revolutions might occur (even in the older terretories). If the bards are good enough (in terms of competence, not alignment), they might be able to avoid this. But Bards are never lawful, so they might have some problems with long-term contracts.
Against a revolution, the wizards will not shine. Okay, they might try some charm spells (but be aware that the typical combat wizard gives up at first illusion and enchantment spells - that`s only for the bard ), but I doubt this will be good enough. (And they will have great difficulties if the leaders of this revolution are clerics or even paladins - Will Saves are too good.)
Killing them leads only to martyrers, nothing really useful.
And fireballing the whole population isn`t a good idea, either.
(Though some Dragons working for the magocracy might think otherwise - they don`t really need the people)

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Al]

Mustrum: An interesting and informed post. Unfortunately, though, your initial assertion is wrong. 'Hit and run' tactics had been invented, simply not by the Romans or main classical civilisations. 'Barbarian' nations had invented them, and did use them. The Parthian horse archers gave rise to the phrase 'Parthian shot', and the Saracens used similar strategies against crusaders. Besides, wizards are ultra-intelligent, so it would be an easy logical step given their capabilities and strengths.

As for diplomacy, it is only really required at the top echelons if the wizards can teleport around the countryside making speeches. So a few sorcerors with Cosmopolitan or Cross-Class Learning could match the paladins on this front.

Finally, with regard to revolts, this is not necessarily the case. We are all thinking in a post-Vietnam age of mass sentiment against war. In a medieval period, war only turned sour if the people themselves were affected. Since the wizards can launch hit-and-run raids on clerical economic resources, but the clerics cannot (lack of mobility and moral confinements) then it is more likely that the populace of the theocracy will turn bitter before that of the magocracy.

 

[Xar]

I vote for Theocracy. For no able-minded God would just let all his followers and clerics get slaughtered...

 

[General Starlight]

Somewhere explained that real artillery like weapons weren`t inveted for the 17th century, so it is plausible that a D&D society won`t have it, either. But if I remember correctly, hit and run tactics weren`t "invented" (or at least not commonly used) at that time, either. So, may be the idea of a teleporting time stopping hitandrund wizard isn`t a "realistic" one? Mustrum Ridcully

Unless you are even attempting to play on a historical recreation of earth, parallel development not only isn't assured, it's highly unlikely. And given the fact such spells have developed, like teleport, hit and run tactics seem almost an inevitable consequence. I'd also say castles would likely not develop, given magic, particularly transmute rock to mud, except 3e actually added that cheap line about how 'worked' stone is now unaffected, probably to avoid that very problem.

Alas, it just presents a bigger one from my POV in that wizards will likely wonder what's so darn special about worked stone that it becomes immune to rock to mud???

Jim.

 

[General Starlight]

I vote for Theocracy. For no able-minded God would just let all his followers and clerics get slaughtered...

That assumes, of course, the gods have no prohibitions about direct interference. I had to more or less assume they do, and for purposed of this discussion, since it didn't ask what happens in a god vs magocracy, that the only power of the gods felt in this war will come from the normal D&D abilities granted to their clerics.

Jim.

 

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[Voidsinger]

If we're assuming Mages will be able to pull of Meteor Swarms and Time Stops, then Clerics should also be able to cast Storm of Vengeance and Earthquake, not to mention that Miracle is much better at "simulating" other spells, including Wizard spells, then Wish is.

Against an army, it's important to remember that most soldiers will not have 200hp. They'll have 10. Meteor Swarm seems like overkill, where as Storm of Vengeance has a chance to whittle them down, on a much larger area of effect.

Don't forget the domains, either. A few clerics with the Travelling domain can get into a mage's barracks as easily as a wizard. Druids, or Clerics with the Animal domain have access to Creeping Doom, another army stopper.

Add this to the fact that the basic troops of a Theocracy will have better morale and surely be affected by beneficial spells and effects like Recitation, Aid, a Paladin's Aura of Courage or a Warpriest's Rally/Fight for your Country effects, and it tilts the balance squarely on the Theocracy's side.

Besides, you can't lose when you have Gods on your side.

 

[Lord Ben]

(begin rant)
How many times do I have to explain the problem with small-unit tactics! I've posted about four times the fact that small-unit tactics doesn't work when there are large melee forces: why do you think that medieval/Renaissance/Napoleonic formations were large? It's because a small force is hopeless against melee! This counts equally for loose formations/skirmish formations! A mass horde of wizard fighters could slaughter the small bands of cleric fighters.
(end rant)

What makes you assume that the Mages would have huge armies? They'd be vulnerable to massive magic assult the same as Clerics would. They'd be just as foolish to gather up in groups as the Theocracy would. Just because Clerics don't have fireballs don't assume they're helpless, when you're fighting 1st level warriors in huge formations you only need weak spells. A stiff cold breeze blows and half the d4 wizards fall over from taking 1d6 subdual cold damage...

It's fairly evenly balanced. For every "killer mage tactic" involving fireballs and flying and teleport there are equally good countermeasures that could and would be taken. Wizards show up then you break out the smokesticks and fog clouds. In a standup Braveheart style battle the Wizards have the upperhand. But in a campaign war with no set boundries it's even. New technologies (magic) mean new tactics on the battlefield. Don't let the swords and armor confuse you into thinking along the lines of middle-ages military tactics. Fast moving and heavy hitting units that can strike from far away and be back at headquarters at night is much closer to todays military tactics then they are to the ones of Napoleon and you don't see tanks lined up en masse on the battlefield anymore.

 

[Lord Ben]

While you can't count on gods to directly aid you don't forget about spells like the planar allies. Even the 4th level Lesser can summon an 8hd outsider. There is nothing like the arrival of teleport without error at will Hound Archons on the battlefield to ruin a mages day. Spell Resistance, Damage reduction, and they're not hard to cast and that's the weakest of them. 8hd worth will get you 8 lantern archons too, their 1d8 rays will make short work of troops since they have 20/+1 damage resistance.