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Theocracy vs. Magocracy: who would win?

Al

First Post
Lord Ben said:
People wouldn't be bunched up in battle anymore then they are in modern warfare. And a mage getting into position to fireball a group would be just as dangerous for them. Marching in hordes across open fields just wouldn't exist, sorry. There would be much more small unit tactics and far less mass hordes. A higher level fighter or Cleric would be the tank and high level mages the artillery and bombers. You need to see the enemy to target effectively and every soldier would have a smokestick or two along to confuse targeting. Teleport raids behind enemy lines wouldn't be any more common then wind walk raids. With wind walk a group can move at 60mph through the air, that's plenty good for lightning raids.

(begin rant)
How many times do I have to explain the problem with small-unit tactics! I've posted about four times the fact that small-unit tactics doesn't work when there are large melee forces: why do you think that medieval/Renaissance/Napoleonic formations were large? It's because a small force is hopeless against melee! This counts equally for loose formations/skirmish formations! A mass horde of wizard fighters could slaughter the small bands of cleric fighters.
(end rant)

Your other suggestions are quite good, but the modern analogy needs to be cut out. Wizards are wizards, not bombers or artillery; clerics are clerics, not tanks. The Wind Walk tactic is a good one.
 

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Imperialus

Explorer
no kidding AL. If you dispirsed it might protect you from a fireball or a metor shower but what happens when a couple of fire elementals or even cavelry get in your ranks? The only possible way to take them down is with large numbers of troops. There was a reason why napolionic armies would from into big squares if there were cavelry nearby. Sure they'd take it in the teeth if they were shot at with cannons but it kept the cavelry from cutting them to ribbons.
 

Imperialus

Explorer
no kidding AL. If you dispirsed it might protect you from a fireball or a metor shower but what happens when a couple of fire elementals or even cavelry get in your ranks? The only possible way to take them down is with large numbers of troops. There was a reason why napolionic armies would from into big squares if there were cavelry nearby. Sure they'd take it in the teeth if they were shot at with cannons but it kept the cavelry from cutting them to ribbons.
 

reiella

Explorer
Wind Walk 6th, Teleport 5th, D-Door, 4th...

Fair comment though about Wind Walk, I had forgotten about that spell :).

5 Round change time however, and teleport can carry more it looks like, and visible change.

Would be interested to see how Gust of Wind would affect it though.

In all truth though I think it'd fall more to specifics of the world and individuals (And luck).
 


-Eä-

First Post
In my opinion it all comes down to population and area. I would say that if the population is great enough to have, say, 4 20th level mages, the theocracy is sold.

What you now need is Teleport Without Error, Haste, Timestop and Meteor Swarm. The mages teleport to the capitol and cast Timestop and Meteor Swarms the entire city. This tactic will the next day be applied to the next major city. Then to the third and so on. The logistics, morale and so forth of the theocracy would be devastated and even if 1/4 of the cities' population survives, the losses would be enormous compared to the mages'.
In a very large, sparsely populated country, this tactic would be crippling.

Of course this same tactic could be applied to battlefields, formations of troops and so forth, given that the mages have scrying devices and messages with the information derived from them given to the same high level mages.

The chance of taking out a 20th level mage is slim, as the mage can cast Teleport Without Error on the end of his Timestop...

Given this, the mages would probably gain quite some experience from this and become even more powerful, so that the cumulative effect would be even more devastating, and finally almost nothing could hinder them from conquering the world, given the proper evil co-operation.



This is in fact the reason why we decided that Timestop should be banned and that Teleport spells should take some time to cast.


In a low-level environment, say, the leader on both sides is about level 10, and very few are 5-6th, I think the theocracy would win, mainly because of healing and Paladin morale.
 

nwn_deadman

First Post
Time Stop

Time Stop has some clarifications posted within the living city campaign world.

Basically Time Stop cannot be used with offensive spells like fireball.

Also you cannot persist time stop because it has been errata’s to instantaneous effect with d4+1 duration.
 

Who Would Win?

Who would win? In a war, no one truly wins, do they? But that's no fun.

Of course everyone must realize too many unspoken factors, not to mention just plain old dumb luck, will probably tell more than all the analysis one can bring to bear on the problem. But that's no fun.

On the morality front, I don't think it's a must the magocracy be evil or even neutral. Two LG forces may easily oppose one another given the right circumstances. I'd certainly say the theocracy would lose, however, unless we further assume they are monotheistic and not polytheistic, as is the case in most D&D games. No one bickers or argues or hates each more than competing religions. Even two LG factions would likely not work so well together.

I would tend to think the magocracy would win. It's more mobile, it quick, the damage is larger, and greater mobile offense usually is superior to greater fixed defense, which the clerics would have. Still, the true power aside from sheer numbers found in the masses has to come from individual high level adventurers.

Wizards are excellent at hit and run tactics while clerics must be more stationary if their healing powers are to be fully utilized. If they aren't right there, it'll be too late for healing, so you have to know where they are. I think they would have to operate more like M.A.S.H. units in large scale operations. But the power of the church is too localized in temples (I admit I'm assuming temples are actually important). What happens when wizards take them out? Essentially nothing, or quite a bit? It's difficult to assess the true military value of such locations. Wizard, on the other hand, can probably do more magic in more areas. Anywhere, anytime, that's their motto.

The Enlarge spell will probably tell the tale. One 1st level kamikaze mage brought in with a higher level mage by teleportation, left behind with a small quantity of Uranium 235, casting Enlarge on it after the higher level mage leaves, ought to do it:rolleyes: Pretty good for a 1st level spell. But that's no fun, and I'm sure many people are retching at the very suggestion (so you should know, I'm not seriously suggesting this should happen).

Still, unless we assume the gods merely offer normal support, as represented by normal spells given to their clerics, and not take a more active hand, we can't really have the theocracy losing. But it's not really gods vs mages here, which is no fun, so we won't assume the gods take an active hand. But never discount the power of divination spells like commune. Are they there? No. Are they there? Yes. Ah HA!!! Talk about great Intel.

Healing is all very well and good, but you can't spread it around fast enough. At best, it serves well to patch up the seriously wounded who would have otherwise died, even then only enough is used to keep them alive, and natural healing is left for the rest. It's important such spells be reserved for those worthy select few high level types to keep them in play, while grunts will fall by the thousads never seeing any help from healing magic. It's always been easier to destroy and harm than heal and build, so the magocracy isn't really too seroiusly out classed here.

Can both sides equally summon creatures that need magic weapons to even hit them? Whoever can do that better has a huge advantage, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with 3e yet to know who can do it better there.

Ultimately, however, I must favor intelligence for its logistics, mages for their mobility and damage, and discount clerics as their skills are more suited for support, healing, and building which will never be faster than the mages attacks, harming, and destructive capabilities. The best thing I've heard on the cleric's side is fact their grunts may more willingly go to and die in holy war, which is no biggie if one is assured a sweet spot in the after life. Then again, it isn't really required the magocracy by an atheistic nation where no similar support or propaganda could do as much.

The only certainty I feel is that it will be ugly, and probably quick. The longer it drags on, the more the clerics may somehow regroup, but their holy shrines and temples will no longer help them as they'll be the first things to go, and if they in any way help connect the faithful to god, without it, what chance do they really have?

Jim.:(
 
Last edited:


Irda Ranger

First Post
Re: Who Would Win?

General Starlight said:
I would tend to think the magocracy would win. It's more mobile, it quick, the damage is larger, and greater mobile offense usually is superior to greater fixed defense, which the clerics would have. Still, the true power aside from sheer numbers found in the masses has to come from individual high level adventurers. Anywhere, anytime, that's their motto.

Healing is all very well and good, but you can't spread it around fast enough. At best, it serves well to patch up the seriously wounded who would have otherwise died, even then only enough is used to keep them alive, and natural healing is left for the rest. It's important such spells be reserved for those worthy select few high level types to keep them in play, while grunts will fall by the thousads never seeing any help from healing magic. It's always been easier to destroy and harm than heal and build, so the magocracy isn't really too seroiusly out classed here.

Ultimately, however, I must favor intelligence for its logistics, mages for their mobility and damage, and discount clerics as their skills are more suited for support, healing, and building which will never be faster than the mages attacks, harming, and destructive capabilities. The best thing I've heard on the cleric's side is fact their grunts may more willingly go to and die in holy war, which is no biggie if one is assured a sweet spot in the after life. Then again, it isn't really required the magocracy by an atheistic nation where no similar support or propaganda could do as much.

The only certainty I feel is that it will be ugly, and probably quick. The longer it drags on, the more the clerics may somehow regroup, but their holy shrines and temples will no longer help them as they'll be the first things to go, and if they in any way help connect the faithful to god, without it, what chance do they really have?

Jim.:(

I snipped a lot from that, I suggest that anyone who skipped Jims post go back and read it.

Jim said exactly what I wanted to say. Winning a war is about being smart, fast and pin-point powerful. The Wizards have the definate advantage there.

Wizards are smarter, more mobile and can do a lot more damage in a slug fest. The Clerics would be overrun before they had a chance to heal anyone.

That being said, I would rather live in a D&D Polytheistic Theocracy than a Magocracy. Better crop yields, real cheap healing and food for the poor. Not to mention a justice system overseen by a Deity who really cares about Justice and not the personal preferences of Judeges and Jurors. This is the stuff of economic growth and stability ... but not fighting wars.

That's why Cormyr Rocks. Its got the Clerics keeping people fat and happy, and the War Wizards standing about making sure things stay that way. You really need both to make a nation both powerful and prosperous.

Irda Ranger
 

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