Theoretical Lord of the Rings question!

[Tsyr]

Ok, this is totaly against the storyline in many respects, so don't flame me for not understanding Tolkien, I know it's messed up!

I've been thinking, what with the movie getting so many people interested in Tolkien, I might be able to use it to get people in to roleplaying.

Problem?

Aw heck, let's face it, metaplots turn a lot of people off.

So here is a theoretical situation.

What if, following the destruction of the ring, the elves had not left middle earth? Rather, what if they had started to increase in numbers somewhat? What if the dwarves had not retreated into the mountains, what if Hobbits remained unchanged... etc etc.

What do you think the world would be like?

Detail areas, situations, etc as ideas come to you.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

The elves were already leaving during the time of "Fellowship". That's one of the reasons Sauron struck at that time. One is given pause to consider that he would have been better served waiting it out a couple more decades, however giant, firey eyeballs are not known for their brains.

Anyway....

Another way to look at it would be role-playing in the world 5 years before fellowship. The bad guys would be just starting to do their bad guy stuff and everything would be pretty much in place.

Does anyone remember Middile Earth Roleplaying by Iron Crown Enterprises? When did they set their game?

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I think Sauran felt that he had to defeat the elves. If they all retreated then he would always feel that his victory was hollow over just men and dwarves.

Also if the elves all did retreat there is a good chance that at least two of the elven rings would go with them over the Sea.

Finally I doubt that Sauron wanted to only conquer Middle Earth. At some point Haven and the realms of the Gods must have been in his line of sight. If too many elves retreated to Haven then he would have a lot less of a chance and he would not have all the rings he wanted.

 

[Tsyr]

My point was that, instead of the last of the elves leaving after Sauron's defeat, what if they started to return?

Do you think the world would slowly return to it's "lost glory"? If not, how do you think the world would be effected by the changes?

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Personally, I've always assumed that ALL the Elves didn't leave Middle Earth. The Silvan Elves, for example, seemed much more inclined to stay in their forests - like Greenwood the Great - rather than go sailing. I think going over the sea was more a Noldor/Sindar thing.

At least, that's my take on it.

By the time of the second or third century of the 4th Age, I'd say that Greenwood (Mirkwood renamed, remember) would be the last bastion of the Elves in Middle Earth. Thranduil would likely still remain, despite the departure of Legolas; Thranduil always struck me as the kind of guy who'd want to be king of his own realm.

Ithilien would have a rarely-seen but influential Elven population. It was a beautiful place, even during the Sauron's reign nearby, and I doubt the Elves would up and abandon it after helping reclaim it.

So, there would still be Elves in Middle Earth. Now, if you're talking about some of the Noldor or Sindar returning, I suppose it could happen. Perhaps a few would miss their Silvan cousins, and return to help bolster their realms. There actually may still be a few of the great Elves of the First Age wandering far to the East, lingering in hopes of rediscovering Cuivienen. Maglor, perhaps still tormented by his crimes of the First Age, haunts hidden forests and glades, forever searching the stars for the Silmaril he threw away. Maybe he would finally come out of his tortured reverie, and try to make amends to Elrond - and thus to Elwing - and reopen the Last Homely House.

Anything is possible.

 

[EOL]

For some real excitement you could have something happen similar to what happened in the Silmarillion. Some great event from across the sea in the realm of the Valar bleeds into Middle-earth and for whatever reason the Noldor and perhaps even the Vanyar(sp? Sil. not handy) might come to Middle-Earth. As you might recall Morgoth is not dead, merely bound, though having him escape would probably be too much. What this event might be I can't imagine. Tolkien has such a downward slope to the glory and power of his world that a sharp turn upward would be very out of character, but it could be done.

As far as the Dwarves, Durin's Bane is dead. There is every reason for them to return to Moria and really turn things around.

 

[Atticus_of_Amber]

One of the themes of LotR is the passing of the powers of the First and Second Ages. With the drowning of Numenor and the Changing of the World, the Valar seem to have made a deliberate policy decision to divorce Middle Earth from the "magical" influence of the Undying Lands. In many ways, they seem to be saying that summoning the elves to the west in the First Age was a Bad Idea. This is supported by the Valar's decision to send the Istari in limited human form as guides and teachers rather than as leaders and creatures of power to oppose Sauron.

This means that anything "from or influenced by the West" has to leave or slowly dwindle in the Fourth Age. The Noldor will all return to Aman. The Sindar can either stay and dwindle into silvan elves or complete their long delayed journey into the Undying West. The Dunedain will slowly dwindle until they are indistinushable from other Men.

The problem is that if the Noldor (let alone the Vanyar; hell, even the Teleri who went to Tol Erasee would be pretty scary by now) were to return, they would have a hugely unbalancing effect. These guys are *powerful* - think an army of Galadrials and Glorfindles. They would totally overshadow and dominate the mortal peoples. In fact, one of the things that's always bothered me about the Tolkein story is why, since Sauron was as "alien" to Middle Earth as any Elda, didn't the Valar just send an army of Noldor and Vanyar to whip his but and bring him back to Valinor in chains. (Of course, given how slowly the Valar work (it took them the whole of the Wars of Belariand (that's nearly a thousand years and a *lot* of dead elves and men) to finally decide to come over and kick Melkor's but) maybe that's what they would have eventually done if the Ring Quest had failed.)

However, I think it is plausible to imagine a Middle Earth where the *silvan* elves and hobbits and dwarves don't dwindle and give way to (increasingle non-Dunedain) Men, but instead co-exist with them. This Middle Earth begins to look very much like a low-magic DnD world.

 

[Desdichado]

Does anyone remember Middile Earth Roleplaying by Iron Crown Enterprises? When did they set their game?

I.C.E. had a license to have roleplaying in the Third and Fourth age only. Their products were typically generic enough (from a time frame) to support any of those periods. They had modules on the Kinslayer Wars in Gondor, before the final fall of the Northern Kingdoms, and during a lot of other key events of the Third Age.

 

[Atticus_of_Amber]

I.C.E. had a license to have roleplaying in the Third and Fourth age only. Their products were typically generic enough (from a time frame) to support any of those periods. They had modules on the Kinslayer Wars in Gondor, before the final fall of the Northern Kingdoms, and during a lot of other key events of the Third Age.

However, I do seem to remember some Second Age stuff as well. in particular, I remember seeing stats for Elendil and Gil-Galad - now those guys were scary muthaf***ers... From memory Elendil was seven feet tall and had an awe effect that meant low level enemies just ran in fear if he confronted them. And Gil-dalad was even more powerful (and taller!). They did stats for Sauron circa the Last Alliance/Seige of Barad-dur too. IIRC, Sauron's fear effect was such that only Elendil and Gil-galad were high enough "level" to face him - it provided an interesting explanation for the LotR account of the final battle.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Lords of Middle Earth, volumes 1-3, had characters from all 4 ages, including the Valar and Maiar, all statted out.