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Theories regaurding the change in rules of D&D.

danzig138 said:
A 1st level human character has a starting age of (average) 17, 18, or 21. At this point, they haven't really had that much life when they started adventuring, so I'd say you're reading it a little wrong.
Starting age is the age a given race can be trusted out of sight of its parents and take care of itself. For a PC who goes straight from his Mom's basement to hunting orcs, this is the "right" age. For a PC whose character history says they were a sailor on the merchant coster Athena for 3-5 years, it would be a little older.

Starting age is one of those "rules" that I hope people realize is just a "suggestion." In fact, it's not a "rule" at all; it's a default presumption which may be ignored as easily as the cosmetic descriptions of the races of the suggested list of names. As long as you meet the minimum age requirements (no 12 year-old Hierophants, please), there's no rational link between character level and starting age. It's just a suggestion that can (and should!) be ignored whenever convenient.


danzig138 said:
I've heard the basic "But my background says...!" from players before who were trying to rationalize getting something for nothing. Reading your posts, it's like hearing them all over again.
Since I've only been a PC twice (once is 7th grade and in an Iron Heroes campaign that's been playing for the last year), I can safely tell you this is not an issue. I'm a DM.

danzig138 said:
It's your job to write your background while accouting for the system; it's not the system's job ...
No. It is the system's job to allow us to play the game we want. End of story. But ...

danzig138 said:
I don't normally say this, but it really sounds like you should just leave D&D for a different system. I think someone may have recommended Buy The Numbers. While I've not looked at it, I've heard decent things about it, and it might work for you. But I doubt it, because it really sounds like you don't want to play what D&D is designed to play.
... there's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Did you see my minor house rule up above? That's all I need to "fix" it. Other than this one very small thing, D&D's fine. It's been my game of choice for decades.
 

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Greetings!

Indeed, part of the "problem" if you will--for some, obviously, there is no "problem" whatsoever--then again, for others, there is some kind of story-telling, creative/mechanical dissonance between what is envisioned with our characters, *real world knowledge* and what the actual mechanics of the system translate to. YMMV.

Having said that, however, I have found some dissonance with it all, which led to some different campaign assumptions in my own world. Indeed, as I have been DMing for 25 years, my "own" characters gaining whatever benefits is largely irrelevant. I want npc's to run properly, and I want players to have characters that run properly, as reflected in their mechanics, from their character background.

For example, in my campaign, this problem led to me making a different assumption from the RAW. Legionnaires, to be specific. Long story short, when it comes to the level of proficiency, the particular feats, and the overall breadth of abilities I ended up with most professional legionnaire soldiers being 6th to 8th level.

The whole 1st level thing is just nonsense to me.

Why? Because from my own personal, real-world knowledge, as well as my knowledge as a historian, I know that professional soldiers--be they modern United States Marines, or Roman Legionnaires in 100 A.D.--can do, and know, far more than what is reflected mechanically by following the RAW, and the base campaign assumptions that the majority of soldiers are 1st level warriors or 1st level fighters.

A first-level fighter does not begin to possess the absolute requirements of what a professional soldier is expected and in fact, trained to do, and know--at 18 years of age.

I have known 18 year old Marines that were excellent marksmen--time after time, consistently, they could outshoot most people that have been shooting for their whole lives. They were also at the same time, highly skilled in martial arts; swimming; mountain climbing; survival; infiltration; riding horses; farming; or having vast knowledge of some academic topic; being expert dog-trainers; and to top it off, they were good at games, gambling, graceful and charming in ceremonies and public situations; often times they were very smooth with the ladies, as well;--and, some of them were damn fine guitar-players and singers as well. Oh, and some were also expert mechanics; expert motorcycle mechanics; bronc-riders and bull-riders as well, some of whom even had regional trophies and other awards for their skills as riders, shooters, and so on. Oh, yeah--and some were fluent in two or three other foreign languages as well. Some of these guys--even as 18 years old--were just amazing as to their awesome skills and knowledge.

In ancient Rome, the Roman legions often had young recruits that had some roughly similar abilities, in their context.

Both going to show that the RAW mechanically, doesn't necessarily accurately portray or reflect even what a *1st Level* character could necessarily look like. If that makes any sense?

All professional considerations aside, just some rough knowledge of society informs us that not all 18 year olds are the same. The RAW of course, tries to straight-jacket that process into a soup of absolute equality--but it isn't an accurate reflection of reality, or even close. Not that being a *perfect* reflection of reality is what is desired, after all--but even in a fantastic game, we enjoy having the elements correspond reasonably close to what we actually know works and behaves in the real world; so--

That leads to the next point. All 18-year olds do not have the same skills, or the same background, and the mechanics do not always allow those ideas to be expressed as elegantly and as realistically as some would prefer, in showing what that different background or different skill level actually looks like for the character in question.

I don't think most competent adults are accurately reflected as 1st to 3rd level characters, of anything. I think they are better served as somewhere between 6th and 12th level. However, that still leaves us with what to do with the levels beforehand, lower on the pecking order, so to speak. The solution is not always higher levels, because that connotates higher BAB, higher combat everything, as Irda Ranger points out so well. So, even for crafting player characters, or npc's, finding the right balanced formula is not always so easy to accomplish, though others have made some excellent suggestions, from Irda Ranger's background packages, to Maddman's bonus of +2 Skill Points per level, for all characters. There are options, after all, and it's always nice to discuss such creative problems, and various approaches to solutions.

Different solutions fit different themes, and also can react differently to the mechanical tool set, so there is always some need to carefully consider how such approaches address the problems, and how smoothly they do so, as well as for thoroughness, and accuracy, without hopefully being *unbalancing*

Just some thoughts.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

Wait. The Marines are already la creme de la creme. I can certainly buy that amongst them there are highly skilled and talented individuals that shine in that august group. In game terms, they already have several levels when they join the Marines for their level of fighter. Entry into a military force does not mean that you are the equivalent of a 1st level D&D character.
 

SHARK said:
That leads to the next point. All 18-year olds do not have the same skills, or the same background, and the mechanics do not always allow those ideas to be expressed as elegantly and as realistically as some would prefer, in showing what that different background or different skill level actually looks like for the character in question.

RAW only says that starting 1st level PCs are, what, 18 year olds. That doesn't mean that 18 year olds couldn't be higher level. It only takes about 1 year game time to reach level 20 (that's how one of my campaigns went 1-20 levels: 1,5 years real time, 1 year game time).

So surely it's not beyond the RAW to have 18 year olds who are level 6 or 8. If that what floats your boat, start at level 6 or 8. That option is there if you choose to use it. There's also the option of playing a 1st level 18 year old who's more of the equivalent of mickey dee employee instead of SHARKs Marine/martial artist/skilled mechanic/guitarhero/polyglot/playboy/gourmet chef army buddy.
 

SHARK said:
I have known 18 year old Marines that were excellent marksmen--time after time, consistently, they could outshoot most people that have been shooting for their whole lives. They were also at the same time, highly skilled in martial arts; swimming; mountain climbing; survival; infiltration; riding horses; farming; or having vast knowledge of some academic topic; being expert dog-trainers; and to top it off, they were good at games, gambling, graceful and charming in ceremonies and public situations; often times they were very smooth with the ladies, as well;--and, some of them were damn fine guitar-players and singers as well. Oh, and some were also expert mechanics; expert motorcycle mechanics; bronc-riders and bull-riders as well, some of whom even had regional trophies and other awards for their skills as riders, shooters, and so on. Oh, yeah--and some were fluent in two or three other foreign languages as well. Some of these guys--even as 18 years old--were just amazing as to their awesome skills and knowledge.
The funny thing is, D&D handles this sort of character very well - he's high level. If he wasn't good at combat and still had all the rest of the skills, then there would be a problem.

The other issue is how high a '+' do you need to be considered highly skilled. D&D is very granular, imo. I see high level PCs as being pretty much superhuman. They certainly are in terms of their fighting prowess. So maybe you just need a +1 or a +2 to be considered highly skilled.
 

Doug McCrae said:
The other issue is how high a '+' do you need to be considered highly skilled. D&D is very granular, imo. I see high level PCs as being pretty much superhuman. They certainly are in terms of their fighting prowess. So maybe you just need a +1 or a +2 to be considered highly skilled.
Based on the DC examples given in the books, I'd say you need a +5 to be competent, +10 to be skilled, and +15 to be considered a master. It's just a question of "What can you do when taking 10."
 

Profession sailor is IMO quite probably to prove useful at some point of a PCs career; there's bound to be water and a craft to pass the water at some point

My own house rule is that I'll allow Profession to mimic an existing, related skill at a -10 penalty. Which allows for a very broad range of knowledge. If you're the Greatest Sailor In The World, maybe you can swim in some choppy waters. But you're not going to do as well as the Greatest Swimmer In The World. I'm comfortable with this, because as written, Profession is only as useful or as restrictive as the DM allows it to be.

It's also worth noting that, as it appears in the 3 core books, the skill system is made so that it's NOT useful to max out all skills. 2-4 skill points in Profession might be all you ever need to put into it, and would be an entirely flavor consideration. Skills like Spot and Listen might be helpful to always keep high. You probably won't need that +20 in Use Rope, though, so make it +16, and put 4 into Profession (sailor) or a craft skill or something.
 

Irda Ranger said:
Based on the DC examples given in the books, I'd say you need a +5 to be competent, +10 to be skilled, and +15 to be considered a master. It's just a question of "What can you do when taking 10."
It's DC20 to craft a masterwork item, or +10. Almost (but not quite) within reach of a 1st level commoner, possible for a 1st level PC class with a 16 int and skill focus.
 

The world long jump record is just under 9m, or about 30 feet. This converts (very easily, almost like the designers were aware of the record) to a jump DC of 30. Hitting this record is more a matter of getting a natural 20, rather than taking 10, which can be achieved with a jump skill of only +10.

Again this makes it look as if +10 is all you need to be a master.

A 20th level raging barbarian with a maxed jump, skill focus and a strength of 39 (15, +5 for levels, +6 item, +5 for manual, +8 for raging) would have a jump check of +40 (+4 for high movement rate), so he could regularly make leaps of almost 55 feet. His best effort would be well over double the world record.
 
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