Theory: Fighters have Encounters, Wizards have Dailies...

[yesnomu]

That is narrowing everything down to combat only. There is more to the game than combat, even if the rules are hinged on it. When in combat you shouldn't worry about who does more damage and try to compete, but be thankful that someone was able to keep the party alive. There is no need to compete for bragging rights between the players. The characters can still claim bragging rights within the party, but only the players see any power shifts in combat as more often than not the PC POV would be that of fighting and not have time to pay attention or care, and just be thankful to be alive. It isn't all about Gimli trying to outdo Legolas.

There is a difference in power, but I liked playing both classes eqaully. The fighter because his abilities were consistent, and the wizard because he could do things the others normally could not and in interesting new ways outside of just damage output.

The problem here is that people like to shine in combat. They like to do cool things and play a significant role. It's not cool to make them sit huge portions of the game on the sideline (hours in my 3.5 games) because they picked the wrong class months ago. Every class should be able to contribute, and hopefully the contributions are roughly even over the course of the campaign.

That doesn't mean the classes shouldn't be different, or have varying levels of competency in different situations. When you need to schmooze information out of a creep at a bar, the rogue is who you turn to. But things like druids making fighters obsolete ought to be a no-no.

The fighter never sucked. He functioned as intended in the proper hands.

Not to get all char-op on these boards or anything, but this is pretty much absolutely untrue. The druid gets a fighter buddy as a class feature, and clerics can also do the job without much trouble. Fighters have sucked since the wargames they were the most basic, disposable unit of.

 

[justanobody]

Ok so not fully understanding the first post, and telling where any actual changes to the rules are, what needs to be done, is have the DM keep the sense of urgency high and not allow the players to become complacent with what they expect to happen in the game?

So rather than changing the system so the fighters don't just keep going encounter to encounter until the wizard has burnt out, make it more to where the wizard players hold back on there spells.

I don't recall as to seeing any sort of breaking a wizards casting, but I bet keeping someone int he wizards face would surely slow down the use of those spells to keep them from burning through them. So the DM needs to change tactics in order to slow down the wizard while not causing them to die or expend everything defending themselves before another PC can rescue them by knocking away the opponent.

I don't think you will ever change the minds of the wizard players that are set on burning out every spell in the beginning without just letting them start dying off.

Maybe I am just too low level in 4th, or the fact I never fell prey to it to notice really a problem due to a different playstyle.

 

[Fifth Element]

I think it would be the wizards own fault to burn himself out, and after so many times that party just might leave the dead weight behind and carry on without them.

Regardless of who or what was at fault, the fact is that it was a large enough problem to a large enough number of people who complained about it that the designers decided to try to do something about it. Whether they succeeded is a different matter.

D&D is a cooperative game. The party as a whole generally does better when the wizard has a full complement of spells available. It's easy to say "tough luck, we're pressing on", but that hurts all of the characters in the party, not just the wizard.

 

[justanobody]

Regardless of who or what was at fault, the fact is that it was a large enough problem to a large enough number of people who complained about it that the designers decided to try to do something about it. Whether they succeeded is a different matter.

D&D is a cooperative game. The party as a whole generally does better when the wizard has a full complement of spells available. It's easy to say "tough luck, we're pressing on", but that hurts all of the characters in the party, not just the wizard.

But are you always able to have the "best" chances to win during the combat? Can you always heal to full, get fully buffed up, have the right weapons and stuff in advance to when you may get into combat?

I guess I just can't wrap my head around the problem being a problem to see if the initial fix in this thread will solve it, but grasp a few of the concepts, just don't see them.

Being cooperative, you should better work with what you have and ration out all things including the powers you have to make sure you get by, without being over the top. When the game allows for a party to be over the top in each encounter, and have more than a few a day without needing rest, then you have really removed any real risk from it. It is the problem with playing another "living" being in that they often succumb to the mortality and restraints of ourselves.

If you are always at full power for everything, then wouldn't that mean that each combat has to be designed to be a TPK, thus again making the party have problems and again causing the "15 minute workday" leading to a never ending cycle.

Otherwise you can use anything all the time, and combat is just a series of rolls until you have finally whittled down the opponent as they will never have a chance since you can keep it up, and then the wizard again surpasses any power output than any other class with the amount he can dish out.

I just don't see a way the game can accommodate or adjust, and the players in the end will have to adjust to work within the confines of the game.

 

[corncob]

Since the fighter was never an extreme but a constant and had little to worry about before but could always keep going, then the fighter is moot in the discussion of extreme, and can only serve as the control. Or the fighter needs to become an extreme to compensate for the wizards faults.

Fighters and wizards are at different extremes with regard to resource management. The system is going to have an equilibrium, and that equilibrium will largely dictate the best way to expend resources. That equilibrium is going to lie somewhere between all at-will (fighter) and all daily (wizard), and will likely be closer to one of the edges than to the center. Giving players the option of choosing either extreme only ensures that someone will choose poorly. That both options are presented as equally valid adds insult to injury.

 

[Khuxan]

I've thought about a house rule for (some, not most) of my 4E games - every time a martial class gets a daily, they instead choose an encounter power of a lower level. Every time an arcane class gets an encounter power, they instead choose a daily of lower level. Divine classes get both. I wonder sometimes how it would work out.

 

[Fifth Element]

But are you always able to have the "best" chances to win during the combat? Can you always heal to full, get fully buffed up, have the right weapons and stuff in advance to when you may get into combat?

Not always. But the chances of having this are maximized by using the 15-minute advanturing day (15MAD?).

Being cooperative, you should better work with what you have and ration out all things including the powers you have to make sure you get by, without being over the top.

But if you can use the 15MAD, then you don't need to ration things. Blow your load up front, maximize your chances of success in that encounter, then retreat and repeat the next day. Some play this way.

If you are always at full power for everything, then wouldn't that mean that each combat has to be designed to be a TPK, thus again making the party have problems and again causing the "15 minute workday" leading to a never ending cycle.

Yes, and that's part of the problem.

Otherwise you can use anything all the time, and combat is just a series of rolls until you have finally whittled down the opponent as they will never have a chance since you can keep it up, and then the wizard again surpasses any power output than any other class with the amount he can dish out.

No, combat in this way is not "just a series of rolls" any more than any other combat is. Having powerful abilities available does not make combat just a series of rolls.