Theory: Fighters have Encounters, Wizards have Dailies...

To the OP, I think that a system derived from that could create a 3.5++ or something. 3.75ish? Not sure. It sounds like it would be taking elements of older D&D that a lot of people liked and combining it w/ a lot of the 4e stuff that grew out of the Bo9S experiment. It sounds like it could be fun.

Would the casters prep spells old school style? Or would they know a group of spells and choose one when they use a daily? What would one do w/ a magic/warrior hybrid? a few combat tricks and a few spells, but not as much as either?

...I can imagine a few different systems. Are you thinking of trying to design something like this?

The idea arose while looking over a friend's copy of Bo9S (a book I never used). I just began to think about how Bo9S got to 4e, and I realized that Martial classes were mostly the "encounter" system of 4e, while spellcasting has typically been the "daily". Ultimately, they decided to mix the two (giving casters some encounter abilities, and giving warriors daily powers), but I began to wonder what it might look like if they had stayed separate...

I think (theoretically) you could build such a system either using D&D's traditional 9 spell level system or by breaking it up by "class level" like 4e did. My thought is something akin to how 4e wizards would work; pick 1 spell from a limited selection every day to "prep", but a sorcerer style "spells known" could've worked as well, I'd wager. I honestly think it would be a lot easier to start in 3.5 and build up, since Bo9S and Vancian casting already exist. It would be a matter of revamping fighters and rogues and such to work with Bo9S's maneuver's system and adding "at-will" magic to wizards and clerics (along with toning down some spells). You could work from 4e as a baseline, but rebalancing Martial Dailies and Divine/Arcane encounter powers seem much harder than toning 3.5's already separate system (although, a true hybrid might work, it would require MAJOR reconstructive surgery, practically rewriting 3.5 and 4e and Frankenstiening them into one).

As to would I do such a project? Probably not. The work involved in extremely intense, and far beyond my meager skills as a writer of game mechanics. I'm mostly interesting in seeing if mechanically separating fighters powers and wizard spells might appeal to some; a kind of compromise between those who like their wizards with a bit more punch than 4e give but don't want to neglect fighter's gains in getting "cool moves"...
 

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It's not so much a case of blaming the system as it is of "playstyle-proofing" the system. Of course, as this thread shows, removing a problem for one subset of players may create another one for another group.

Which means you can't build the system for everyone, but built what you do, and then explain exactly how the system is intended to work.

So if the past problem changed to create a new problem was it that players changed the way they played to adapt to a system without knowing the systems intent?

So the problem was recreating by changing the system. Fighters can go on forever as they have no restraints int heir abilities, and magic just simply runs out no matter the edition.

Making magic be an all powerful able to do anything source means that with all that granted power it succumbs to not being able to be used all the time.

Taking 5 lbs of black powder and making little firecrackers with it means you could have them last the whole day, but stick the fuse into the entire 5 pounds and you get a bigger bang, but only one of them.

It seems wizards have always been like that. You get one quick blast of power and then its gone, while the fighter can keep going consistently. So is the problem wizards were too powerful or have become less powerful in the need to cause them to slow the party down, or the fighter is too reliable in constant output of abilities?
 

It seems wizards have always been like that. You get one quick blast of power and then its gone, while the fighter can keep going consistently. So is the problem wizards were too powerful or have become less powerful in the need to cause them to slow the party down, or the fighter is too reliable in constant output of abilities?

The problem lies in how much more powerful magic has been in solving problems compared to a fighter's sword.

A fireball does a large amount of damage to a large group of foes in a very short period of time. The fighter cannot match that damage output except over time (lets say 1 round per foe). Every round the foes are alive is potentially a round one gets a crit and downs the fighter. The Doctrine of Overwhelming Force comes into play; the longer you fight a foe, the more time he has to surprise you and mount a comeback.

4e tried to reconcile this by making a fighter's sword and a wizard's spells separate but equal. Sure, I might harm a group of foes with a fireball, but my fighter's got an close-burst 2[w] attack that deals roughly the same amount of damage. Same mechanic, different appearance.

My proposal was to re-create the daylight between these ideas; a wizard's fireball has more kick than a fighter's power, but a fighter is certainly still able to strike at multiple foes.
 

But anyway...the wizard wasn't useless when out of spells, just not supposed to waste them all up front, and those players caused the problem, not really the system. So why blame the system?
Because it's the system's fault. If divergent resource-management paradigms exist within the same system, it will favor one extreme and punish the others accordingly.

There's no need to build rules into the system that make your character suck, all the while making those rules seem like valid options.
 


Isn't this just 3.5 where the martial people play Bo9S characters (like the smart ones were anyway)? Except for at-wills, I guess.

I think Pathfinder gives spellcasters at-will powers, you might see how you like that. The classes are supposed to be balanced with the Bo9S-types, though I have no idea if they pulled it off.
 

Will somebody explain to me the problem with a "15-minute workday" in the game, when you don't have some timed mission?

Does it really matter how much in game time passes? Are you chasing someone across open country all the time, or some clock is ticking away that you need to get something done by tomorrow?


To explain it in logical, technical terms...

...because it's totally freaking horribly LAME!

Heroes in fantasy literature and movies don't stop to sleep for the night after every room full of a half-dozen orcs they clear. If you actually saw protagonists doing that in a story, you'd be like, "WTF kind of heroes are these?"

That's why it matters, in my opinion.

Also, there's the whole issue of why, exactly, all the rest of the bad guys in whatever nasty place the heroes are exploring/invading/assaulting are just going to sit around and patiently wait, OVER AND OVER, for many, many hours, for the party to sleep after every fight, without attacking them, or getting reinforcements, or refortifying/regrouping/redeploying in ways which would essentially screw up the adventure by making it impossible.

You can cleverly explain that away and come up with contrived narrative reasons for it . . . sometimes. But that starts to wear thin really quickly if the 15-minute workday is the STANDARD method of adventuring used by the party.

Verisimilitude, a sense of urgency, intensity, and danger are all pretty much history at that point. Yay, we've turned a scary and challenging D&D adventure site into a static WoW instance.

That's why it matters, to me.
 

The problem lies in how much more powerful magic has been in solving problems compared to a fighter's sword.

A fireball does a large amount of damage to a large group of foes in a very short period of time. The fighter cannot match that damage output except over time (lets say 1 round per foe). Every round the foes are alive is potentially a round one gets a crit and downs the fighter. The Doctrine of Overwhelming Force comes into play; the longer you fight a foe, the more time he has to surprise you and mount a comeback.

4e tried to reconcile this by making a fighter's sword and a wizard's spells separate but equal. Sure, I might harm a group of foes with a fireball, but my fighter's got an close-burst 2[w] attack that deals roughly the same amount of damage. Same mechanic, different appearance.

My proposal was to re-create the daylight between these ideas; a wizard's fireball has more kick than a fighter's power, but a fighter is certainly still able to strike at multiple foes.

That is narrowing everything down to combat only. There is more to the game than combat, even if the rules are hinged on it. When in combat you shouldn't worry about who does more damage and try to compete, but be thankful that someone was able to keep the party alive. There is no need to compete for bragging rights between the players. The characters can still claim bragging rights within the party, but only the players see any power shifts in combat as more often than not the PC POV would be that of fighting and not have time to pay attention or care, and just be thankful to be alive. It isn't all about Gimli trying to outdo Legolas.

There is a difference in power, but I liked playing both classes eqaully. The fighter because his abilities were consistent, and the wizard because he could do things the others normally could not and in interesting new ways outside of just damage output.

This isn't to say that the way combat happens is all the games fault or the players, but you have to look at how people are playing the game to see why the "15 minute workday" happens. It wasn't meant to be played like that ever, but players decided to do so, to put it on easy mode, which did cause DMs to throw more at them and harder all the same.

I would wonder which came first, the accidental hard encounter by a DM, or the overuse of powerful magic early on that forced DMs to make harder encounters...which probably bred the killer DMs.

So the system can be used if the mindset of the players and DM is turned back to the games intent. Lethal possible encounters that will drain your resources, but not intended to do so from the start of the day. The waste of resources is the fault of the players and DM from the years of people trying to rush through things with those quick powerful spells.

I think it would be interesting to find out the history of spells, and what was the average spell list for each edition including the new 4th system and see what the focus is on. I would wager that more and more combat related spells came to use for many people, the question would become why was it so?

Were the combats that tough, or was the report from the magic just the only thing loud enough to impress the onlookers?

Because it's the system's fault. If divergent resource-management paradigms exist within the same system, it will favor one extreme and punish the others accordingly.

There's no need to build rules into the system that make your character suck, all the while making those rules seem like valid options.
Since the fighter was never an extreme but a constant and had little to worry about before but could always keep going, then the fighter is moot in the discussion of extreme, and can only serve as the control. Or the fighter needs to become an extreme to compensate for the wizards faults.

Everyone can't be good at everything, and the extremes will exist so long as there are classes. Unitaskers are what makes the classes stand apart, otherwise you don't really have a need for any specific class if everyone is just as effective as the next guy.

The fighter never sucked. He functioned as intended in the proper hands.

Wizards had no armor, no HP, and no good weapons. Please explain to me how they were useful when they weren't using magic.

A quarterstaff is not a good weapon? Your statement seems about like saying what good is the horse without a cart.

I think the problem lies in what people want to do. Previous editions were not all about combat effectiveness, and the wizard had tons of spells to perform his part of the game. Someone else mentioned somewhere about the roles of the classes with fighter being the melee, rogue, being something else, cleric being the healer, and wizard being the toolbox. Each class had its uses in the entire game, and not just combat, so trying to compete with each other in combat seems a bit silly.

Hopefully 4th should be encouraging people to work together more, but it seems that they are competing with each other in the party even more.

To explain it in logical, technical terms...

...because it's totally freaking horribly LAME!

Heroes in fantasy literature and movies don't stop to sleep for the night after every room full of a half-dozen orcs they clear. If you actually saw protagonists doing that in a story, you'd be like, "WTF kind of heroes are these?"

That's why it matters, in my opinion.

Then don't try to emulate those things with a system not built for it?

Wait for a game built on simulating blockbuster action movies and such. I recall the Conan movies having a wizard and he didn't do very much to need to slow him down, but the action was good. Likewise Beastmaster had no wizard on his side, yet beat wizards and clerics.

These were big movies. What exact movie would you be trying to reproduce in the game, and why can it not be done through any other system? It seems all those things trying to be done as parts of the narrative. Like those movies I mention, the wizard shouldn't be expending everything he has within an hour of waking up knowing he will run out. We are talking about the character with the highest intelligence here, and they can't add?

Now with the at-wills, they have even more strengths to keep going without expending those other spells as they now have less spells to use than any previous addition, so should rely more on using what they have wisely rather than haphazardly.

I think it would be the wizards own fault to burn himself out, and after so many times that party just might leave the dead weight behind and carry on without them.
 
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I agree with you. I think casters (in older versions) and now every character, shouldn't be playing that way. I just think it's mostly got to be incumbent upon the DM to ensure that it doesn't happen. If you simply let the players rest and recharge all of their stuff whenever the heck they want, of course they'll nova and sleep after every fight. Why wouldn't they, if the game is moderately challenging and they want their characters to live and succeed?

I just refuse to DM that way. But at the same time, I really dislike the idea of punishing players. I might make it nearly impossible to get an extended rest during the adventure (or one section of it), but I try not to do it in some kind of punitive, metagaming way.

But a game where the heroes can just stop and rest anytime they want, with NO narrative consequences or restrictions, like it's some video game, is not fun to me, either as a player or as a DM. The solution just lies in careful and creative adventure design, or houseruling to alter the resource management model.
 

A quarterstaff is not a good weapon? Your statement seems about like saying what good is the horse without a cart.

No, I don't consider someone with 8 to 10 Strength and a bad base attack bonus / THAC0 / whatever flailing away with a quarterstaff to be of much use to the group.
 

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