Theurgist Feats

[ValhallaGH]

Actually, the idea of the feat is that is only combines the cleric and wizard levels, not any other levels. Thus, your example character would only count as a 12th level cleric and wizard. I guess saying "character level" in the feat was misleading. :\

Indeed. In fact, by using the words "character level" you made my interpretation the actual version rather than what you'd intended. That's why I mentioned it, so you'd notice and be able to fix it if you desired to do so. Just trying to be helpful.

That's just SO. MANY. SPELLS. It just *feels* wrong. Oh well. Mr. Noonan was pretty dang convincing.

Still, it's so counterintuitive, ya know?

Yeah, I know.
*Offers a consoling drink.**

 

[Knightfall]

I've dumped the old version of the Theurgist feat (above), and instead have built a new concept inspired by Cheiromancer's thread....
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=135992

Here's his main "theurgist" feat, modified for my campaign, and with higher Prerequisites...

Theurgic Adept [General]
By Cheiromancer – modified for World of Kulan
Your arcane and divine caster levels stack when determining caster level.
Prerequisites: Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 15, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion or nature) 6 ranks, ability to cast both arcane and divine spells, Mystic Insight* or Insight into the Green*.
Benefit: Your arcane and divine class levels stack (to a maximum of your character level) for the purpose of determining your caster level. This does not affect your spells known or your spells per day.
*See the linked thread for these feats.

And here are my creations, in homage...

Theurgic Savant [General] (NEW)
You gain a bonus on your theurgic arcane and divine spells' save DCs.
Prerequisites: Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 17, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion or nature) 8 ranks, ability to cast both arcane and divine spells, Mystic Insight or Insight into the Green, Theurgic Adept.
Benefit: You gain a +2 insight bonus on all save DCs for your chosen theurgic arcane and divine classes' spells.

True Theurgist [Epic] (NEW)
Your arcane and divine caster levels stack when determining number of spells.
Prerequisites: Int 19, Wis 19, Cha 19, Knowledge (arcana) 20 ranks, Knowledge (religion or nature) 20 ranks, ability to cast both arcane and divine spells, Mystic Insight or Insight into the Green, Theurgic Adept, Theurgic Savant.
Benefit: Your arcane and divine class levels stack (to a maximum of your character level) for the purpose of determining your normal spells known and your normal spells per day, but not for any epic spells.

Epic Theurgist [Epic] (NEW)
Your Knowledge skill ranks stack when determining number of epic spells.
Prerequisites: Int 21, Wis 21, Cha 21, Knowledge (arcana) 25 ranks, Knowledge (religion or nature) 25 ranks, ability to cast both arcane and divine epic spells, Mystic Insight or Insight into the Green, Theurgic Adept, Theurgic Savant, True Theurgist, Epic Spellcasting.
Benefit: Your Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion or nature) ranks stack (to a maximum of 100 ranks) for the purpose of determining your epic spells per day.

 

[Knightfall]

Theurgic Mastery [Special] (NEW)
You may select divine spells for use with Spell Mastery; gain extra mastery spells.
Prerequisites: Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 15, Wizard level 5th, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion or nature) 6 ranks, ability to cast both arcane and divine spells, Mystic Insight or Insight into the Green, Theurgic Adept, Spell Mastery.
Benefit: You may choose divine spells instead of arcane spells for purposes of the Spell Mastery feat, and may cast them without having any divine foci (i.e. holy symbol) normally required, on hand. You gain 1 extra mastery spell for each time you have taken the Spell Mastery feat (retroactively), and these extra spells may be either arcane or divine. You cannot change any mastery spells already selected before this feat was taken, however.
Normal: Without this feat, you must use a divine spell focus to cast most divine spells (read magic is one exception), and you can only use the Spell Mastery feat for wizard spells.
Special: Note that you still only gain a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier (+1 for this feat). Only theurgic spellcasters with at least 5 levels of wizard can take this feat.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Re: Theurgic Savant

I see you are concerned about the bane of multiclassed spellcasters: multiple ability dependence (MAD). If a character has to keep Intelligence, Wisdom (and Charisma) at high levels, he won't be able to get the spell DCs and bonus spells of a single-class caster. Bonus spells aren't really a problem (you have twice as many spells going in) but the spell DCs are a different story. This feat goes an awful long way towards closing the gap; it's equivalent to a +4 ability boost in both classes.

Let's see. A single-class character might have a starting array of 16, 12, 12 (18 points) in her mental stats. All her level up bonuses go to the high score, and she has a +6 buff item (36,000 gp). 27, 12, 12, and a +8 bonus to spell DCs.

A multiclass character has 14, 14, 14 in those arrays (18 points), divides his level up bonuses fairly equally, and has two +4 buff items and a +2 buff item (36,000 gp). 20, 20, 17. A +5 bonus to the spell DCs, but +7 with Theurgic Savant.

I bet the single-class caster will feel she should have more than a +1 lead in the save DCs relative to the multiclass caster. Especially since this lead disappears if the latter character gets the best non-epic ability buffs. Sure he has to have spent more feats, but he can turn undead very well (because he didn't make Charisma his dump stat), he suffers no caster level penalties (which would normally require 2 Practiced Spellcaster feats), and he has all the normal benefits of high ability scores.

Re: True Theurgist

So a 3rd level cleric/18th level wizard suddenly shoots from having 2nd level cleric spells to having 9th level cleric spells? This doubling of high level spells doesn't strike you as a little over the top?

Re: Epic Theurgist

I don't endorse the ELH system of magic. And I don't think that any character should be able to double the number of epic spells they can cast through a single feat.

 

[Machiavelli]

I think the prerequisites are a bit too stiff for the benefit. The Int,Wis,Cha requirements on Theurgic Adept could be brought down to +13, and +16 for the Savant.

 

[Knightfall]

Re: Theurgic Savant

I see you are concerned about the bane of multiclassed spellcasters: multiple ability dependence (MAD). If a character has to keep Intelligence, Wisdom (and Charisma) at high levels, he won't be able to get the spell DCs and bonus spells of a single-class caster. Bonus spells aren't really a problem (you have twice as many spells going in) but the spell DCs are a different story. This feat goes an awful long way towards closing the gap; it's equivalent to a +4 ability boost in both classes.

Let's see. A single-class character might have a starting array of 16, 12, 12 (18 points) in her mental stats. All her level up bonuses go to the high score, and she has a +6 buff item (36,000 gp). 27, 12, 12, and a +8 bonus to spell DCs.

A multiclass character has 14, 14, 14 in those arrays (18 points), divides his level up bonuses fairly equally, and has two +4 buff items and a +2 buff item (36,000 gp). 20, 20, 17. A +5 bonus to the spell DCs, but +7 with Theurgic Savant.

I bet the single-class caster will feel she should have more than a +1 lead in the save DCs relative to the multiclass caster. Especially since this lead disappears if the latter character gets the best non-epic ability buffs. Sure he has to have spent more feats, but he can turn undead very well (because he didn't make Charisma his dump stat), he suffers no caster level penalties (which would normally require 2 Practiced Spellcaster feats), and he has all the normal benefits of high ability scores.

Well, the feat idea was designed more to give a "theurgist" a boost. I've heard about this MAD concept, but hadn't considered it when designing the feat. it was more like a lightbulb going on. Bing. Hey, what about this.

Re: True Theurgist

So a 3rd level cleric/18th level wizard suddenly shoots from having 2nd level cleric spells to having 9th level cleric spells? This doubling of high level spells doesn't strike you as a little over the top?

I thought of that, but not until after I'd already written it out and added it to my feats document. This is why I designated it as an Epic feat. You have to be Epic to take it, at least, that's how I intended it.

Still, you have a point. Perhaps the feat should have a minimum class level or spell level for both the chosen arcane and divine class. Say, "able to cast both 5th-level arcane and divine spells" or "arcane spellcaster level 9th and divine spellcaster level 9th".

That might make it more in line with what I want.

Re: Epic Theurgist

I don't endorse the ELH system of magic. And I don't think that any character should be able to double the number of epic spells they can cast through a single feat.

Well, it is my first reall Epic feat concept, that deals with Epic spellcasting. Hmm, maybe instead of doubling the number of epic spells, the character could gain a number of extra epic spells based on half their Chariasma score modifier (rounded down).

And I realize that the ELH system of magic is broken, but it's all all I understand at this point. My mind isn't ready for Sep's Epic Magic until I, at least, learn the basics for myself.

Thanks for the input.

Cheers!

Kf72

 

[Knightfall]

I think the prerequisites are a bit too stiff for the benefit. The Int,Wis,Cha requirements on Theurgic Adept could be brought down to +13, and +16 for the Savant.

The requirements are high for a reason. It's a campaign world concept. Magic isn't commonplace and those that practise it have to "be the best". Their is some variation, from region to region, but overall, the world is magic restricted.

My players are learning this first-hand. They are spending all their wealth and time creating and upgrading their magic items, because magic items are hard to come by and most NPC arcanists won't sell what they have or help the PCs create new magic items.

(For Wyre, or another campaign, there wouldn't be a Charisma requirement and you could lower the Ability score requirements.)

 

[Cheiromancer]

I hope you don't mind if I pelt you with some questions!

How do players generate their starting ability scores? Do you follow standard wealth guidelines in your campaign? What do you mean by restricted classes or prestige classes (the ones with asterisks in the "PC CLASSES LIST (FOR HARQUAL)" document)? What other restrictions are there on magic?

 

[Knightfall]

I hope you don't mind if I pelt you with some questions!

How do players generate their starting ability scores? Do you follow standard wealth guidelines in your campaign? What do you mean by restricted classes or prestige classes (the ones with asterisks in the "PC CLASSES LIST (FOR HARQUAL)" document)?

Questions are good. They make me think.

My plan has been to follow the standard wealth guidelines, yet the players keep telling me their broke, so I'm not sure. They seem to have a lot, but maybe they should have more. Live and learn. Their going to get some major treasure in our next game, so I think they'll be happier.

Note that I keep reminding them to use their Craft, Perform, and Profession skills, during downtime, to make some extra coin, but most of them don't think about that. Only the bard has taken his Perform skill to heart, and is earning lots of coin because of it.

As for the restricted classes or prestige classes in the document you mentioned, many of them are restricted based on alignment. PCs can't select classes like Anti-Paladin, Corruptor, or Despot, at all, while Incarnate class can be selected by the player has to be willing to understand the roleplaying that goes along with it.

While many of the restricted classes and prestige class are very evil, some are restricted based on location. The Cultist class is one example of this. That class is a Freeport class, period, and it does have some alignment issues. But, in Freeport, alignment isn't as important as survival.

The Wilderness Rogue variant class is another example of a restricted, regional class. I only plan to use that class for the Lands of Harqual, but may simply drop it completely for the scout class, which I'm still not sure of. (The scout class seems a bit overpowered.)

As for certain prestige classes, an asterisk might mean the PrC is restricted to a certain race, such as the Beholder Mage PrC. PrCs that require the character to be undead are also restricted (i.e. Master Vampire).

You'll note that the various "Draconic" PrCs aren't restricted. This is due to the strong influence of dragons for the World of Kulan. Dragons are different and they are involved in the world. (D&D Dragon Magic is perfect for my world, with a few tweaks.)

See here, for more about Kulan Dragons!

I see you've joined my World of Kulan yahoo group. Note that there is also a Kulan: DM's Eyes Only yahoo group, which has a lot more detailed information regarding the campaign world, as a whole. Harqual has been my main focus for some time now, but I'm always looking to expand the other regions of the world.

The DM's Eyes Only group is by invitation only, so if you want an invite then post a request here.

Let me think more about this question...

What other restrictions are there on magic?

 

[Knightfall]

BTW Cheir, and anyone else interested, make sure you check out these 3 WoK threads, if you haven't already...

The World of Kulan Thread
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=77467
- There is always something new here. Lately, I've been posting (other) feats and spells.

World of Kulan Maps
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=73364

World of Kulan: Monster Compilations
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=102804