They killed my abbrasive, quarrelsome, violent NPC that I loved so much

[Quasqueton]

Oh, and just for the record...

I've been thinking back on the year and a half of DMing my current game group. I can remember only twice when an NPC has used Diplomacy on a PC. I can remember only 5 times that an NPC has used Intimidate on a PC -- once from the dragon mentioned above on 4 PCs at one time, and 4 times by Lewellyn (whom this thread was about) on individual PCs at seperate times (and the PCs resisted 3 of those 4 times, and even counter Intimidated successfully 1 of those times).

Quasqueton

 

[Quasqueton]

As for the other argument about whether I compared the Intimidate skill to the cause fear spell:

I'm not going to track every statement and response through this thread (especially with the boards all slow).

Someone said they don't want their character's actions dictated by a die roll. If they don't want their character to be scared, then they won't be scared, regardless of a die roll.

I responded to this by pointing out there are many times when a character's actions are dictated by a die roll --- for instance: a character can be scared and forced to run away by a die roll.

That was the extent of my meaning with the cause fear example. I could have (and probably should have) used a different spell for my example --- like a character can be put to sleep against the Player's wishes with a failed save against sleep.

Die rolls dictate a lot of character action. Hell, irresistible dance can dictate a character's action *without* a die roll. Does that bother anyone?

Now why would the *suggestion* (not dictation) of character action based on a Diplomacy/Intimidate check get a Player all up and bothered?

Quasqueton

 

[Quasqueton]

Q, what do you find to be the advantage of these checks? They seem to have little effect on game play according to your own statement. Do you use them as cues for how a character might elect to respond?

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Despite the fact that so many have thrown in words like "forced" or "scripted" and such, I have never *forced* PCs to react by "script" to these checks.

As it hasn't happened often, I'm discussing this from almost a theoritical stance. If I resort to a Diplomacy or Intimidate check for an NPC on a PC, I expect (in the gentlemanly meaning, not the tyrannical meaning) the Player to role play the result appropriately.

There have been many instances of PC-on-PC Diplomacy, and most Players play along in good-natured agreement.

Quasqueton

 

[kigmatzomat]

When I started running my 3.0 game right after GenCon I found the rule about NPCs diplomacy/intimidate checks not affecting PCs. Seemed like crap to me but I put it to the players, though with a slight twist.

"Do we run the RAW where diplomacy/intimidate/etc cannot influence PCs, BBEGs and plot-critical NPCs or do we let the dice handle the gut reactions?"

The consensus was to let the dice control the emotional response but not the specific actions. Why? Well, the character isn't the player. The dice give some abstraction and a bit of variance. My group is good enough at RP that they will act in a fashion consistent with the character and the situation. The players get to decide how their character acts based on the magical or subconscious emotional responses. Diplomacy & Intimidate was considered the same as Charm and Fear as far as controlling the PCs with die rolls. Charm doesn't turn them into slavish sycophants and Diplomacy and Bluff means they find the person likeable or trustworthy.

Sometimes I handle it with a note since the player won't know if the character was magically charmed or on the receiving end of a good snow job. A lot of the failed rolls turn into suitable flavor text. Intimidated by a blue dragonling? "While at first glance it doesn't seem large enough to be a threat, the hair on your neck disagrees. Maybe it's a half-forgotten racial memory but every fiber of fight-or-flight is screaming *flight* right now. You wish you had a bigger sword or maybe an alternative...."

Since I have the players make several rolls in advance it's still a secret roll but it's one they made; they just don't know which roll it was, what it was for, or even when they made it. (Great for Spot/Listen/Sense Motive checks)

 

[Cerubus Dark]

Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate

Three skills I have to use a work around for. Wait, whats that you moan, what do I mean work around?

These skills represent the PC or NPC's ablities to use, what do they call them, *snap* oh yea WORDS in place of swords or magic to get information. I use them to make will saves VS the PCs skill + how they worded the conversation. I once had a fighter with a Diplomacy of 1,talk an Adult Red Dragon into not attacking a town by simply talking to the beast and convincing it that the town would pay "tribute" to their new lord and master. (dragon later died at the hands of the fighter and his party)

As far as the baby blue lizard, yea my group would have smacked the heck out of him too.

 

[IcyCool]

Rough day? It seems to me that you at least owe IcyCool a response, and possibly an apology...

Meh. No apology was asked for, so no apology was given. Nor is an apology needed. If a person here chooses to behave like Quasqueton did, I'll ask them to calm down/chill out/grow up, because if I wanted to be around that level of maturity, I'd go to my local FLGS. But everyone has their days, I do, Quasqueton does, and so on. Quasqueton has been much more civil in his/her posts, and has even managed to respond to my post.

I appreciate the concern, but I don't feel insulted or irritated about Quasqueton's post. Disappointed maybe, but that's about it. *shrug*

I do have another question for you Quasqueton. I didn't really ask it clearly in my last post. Why did your NPC draw steel on (lethal, intent to kill) instead of kicking/punching/etc (non-lethal) your PCs (she attacked party members twice, yes? The monk on the boat before they became a party, and then later, when the party killed her.)

Yeah, because IcyCool wrote an argument that Quaqeton had answered/refuted before in the thread, he is owed an apology.

If you feel the remark was out of line, report it. Don't fan the flames.

Could you please point out the argument I made that Quasqueton answered/refuted previously?

I also do not see where this remark is "fanning the flames." But YMMV.

 

[Quasqueton]

Three of four failed? Considering the hatching gets a d20-4 vs. the players d20+2+wis+fear save mods, they must have rolled pretty poorly vs. your pretty good roll.

Actually, a hatchling gets +9 (full ranks for class skill), +2 synergy from Bluff (class skill for blue), then -4 for size for at least a total of +7. I don't have the dragon's stats with me, so I'm going from vague memory. [According to the Draconomicon, dragons have their full skills and feats within an hour of hatching. Again going from memory.]

What made you decide to go with an intimidate check in this situation?

Well, it seemed like something a hatchling dragon (10 Intelligence, 11 Wisdom, 10 Charisma) would do when outnumbered by potential threats: scare off the creatures tresspassing in its claimed territory. Plus, it gives the four 2nd-level PCs a chance to realize what they are actually up against before having its teeth and claws all up in their face.

Quasqueton

 

[TheEvil]

Actually, a hatchling gets +9 (full ranks for class skill), +2 synergy from Bluff (class skill for blue), then -4 for size for at least a total of +7. I don't have the dragon's stats with me, so I'm going from vague memory. [According to the Draconomicon, dragons have their full skills and feats within an hour of hatching. Again going from memory.]

Got it. That's what I get for not looking at the general section on dragon skills before jumping to the type specific.

Well, it seemed like something a hatchling dragon (10 Intelligence, 11 Wisdom, 10 Charisma) would do when outnumbered by potential threats: scare off the creatures tresspassing in its claimed territory. Plus, it gives the four 2nd-level PCs a chance to realize what they are actually up against before having its teeth and claws all up in their face.

Quasqueton

I would have thought hiding would have been a better move for a newly hatched dragon, but I can certainly see where this would be one tactic. Out of curiousity, given that the PCs were sent to get rid of the problem, and that this isn't a magical fear effect, how do you think this should have been properly roleplayed?

 

[Quasqueton]

I appreciate the concern, but I don't feel insulted or irritated about Quasqueton's post. Disappointed maybe, but that's about it. *shrug*

You were the third person to say I had compared the Intimidate skill and the cause fear spell. I believe I addressed it the first two times, and seeing it a third drove me over the edge. One of the few things that can really set me off in message forums is when someone mis-infers something from what I write. I don't intentionally write in riddles or ennuendo, so I wish people wouldn't read between the lines.

"I like steak."

"Oh my god! You like killing cows?"
"Why don't you like chicken?"

Why did your NPC draw steel on (lethal, intent to kill) instead of kicking/punching/etc (non-lethal) your PCs?

It was her way/style/mindset/character. I could go into more detail about her personality, alignment, skills, etc., but then folks here would argue, "I would never play her that way."

The Players and PCs knew she was abbrassive, quarrelsome, and violent. They knew that she took to fighting at the least provocation or opportunity.

Quasqueton

 

[TheEvil]

Well, as you said yourself, no big suprise that she was killed. Kind of suprising she survived for long off the boat. Why did the NPC want to hire such an obnoxious person? Did he just not have the whole story?