Thief 3 and D&D.

[Kemrain]

Having recently purchased a new videocard to play Thief - Deadly Shadows, I can say it was worth it. As always, getting into a Thief game inspires me to run a Thief-esque DnD game, and I know I can't be the only one. I've given it some thought before, but I always came across some fundimental issues that I couldn't work out on my own.

Dungeons and Dragons and Thief don't usually share much in the way of atmosphere. While you can play a dark DnD game, most people I've interacted with assume that DnD means, well, Dungeons and Dragons! The Thief world is a great derivation from this norm, and many things about DnD need to be addressed or changed to fit into the theme better.

I've come to the conclusion that, in order to make a thief game work, the system needs to be significantly tweaked. You can't run a game true to the Thief setting and have Clerics, Sorcerers and Elves running about like it's a Forgotten Realms game.

What I'm curious about is what, if any, rules modifications the people of ENWorld think could work to make a game more Thiefly. I'm looking for suggestions to help make the rules help support the theme and feeling of the setting, not necessarily the gameplay of the Thief games.

- Kemrain the Keeper Novice.

 

[Wraith Form]

Having recently purchased a new videocard to play Thief - Deadly Shadows, I can say it was worth it. *SNIP* I'm looking for suggestions to help make the rules help support the theme and feeling of the setting, not necessarily the gameplay of the Thief games.

Great topic, wonderful game. I've always enjoyed playing rogues and have tried to run more "larceny-oriented" adventures as a DM. Thief 2 brought in the clockwork/steam-driven robot thingies, and I enjoyed that unusual deviation from the standard D&D game.

I don't have advice as much as I just know how you feel. I've filled out WotC (well, actually TSR) product surveys, and I always suggested making more thief-centric adventures/settings. The closest thing they came up with is the Lahnkmar setting, based of the Fafhrd/Grey Mouser stories by Fritz Lieber.

Uh, yeah.

 

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

I've come to the conclusion that, in order to make a thief game work, the system needs to be significantly tweaked. You can't run a game true to the Thief setting and have Clerics, Sorcerers and Elves running about like it's a Forgotten Realms game.

What it comes down to, is how much your setting is influenced by the game rules..
My personal feeling is that it's a shame that it tends to be, but for example, having 300 HP in a thief-like world does not encourage people to be sneaky.

Restrict people to Grim and Gritty hitpoints.
Restrict people to Human.
Restrict people to Rouge, Fighter, Barbarian and Expert classes.
Restrict availability of Weapons.

-E1ven

 

[Aristotle]

I ran a thief game a long time ago. It was long before the video game came out so it didn't share similarities in setting, but it was (especially for young gamers) an interesting new way to play the game. I came up with the idea because I only had two players and I didn't feel like running an NPC to fill out the ranks for a standard adventuring party.

We played almost exclusively in the Forgotten Realms back then so I set it up in Waterdeep. I ran it over the course of a summer and the players loved it. They never left the city and they had a blast. (That tought me an important lesson in how to portray a city when I DM. It isn't just a landmark that the characters passby on their way to the next dungeon.)

For the record the characters were an elven thief/wizard who specialized in stealing things of a magical nature and a dwarven thief/fighter who was the son of a locksmith and quite handy with locks and vaults himself.

 

[Thotas]

I call what you're talking about "theme gaming". Never found a group that was interested, but I've always thought it gives a focus to things that should make for a fun time, a good change from the usual (but still fun) mish-mash that a D&D adventure party provides.

I would simply say to the players, "Hey, I've got an idea ... I'd like to create some scenarios that are catering heavily to the flavor and abilities of Rogues. It would probably be appropriate if each character in the group had at least half of their levels in Rogue at any time, to match the mood and to handle the challenges." (I'm not familiar with the game you're referring to, other restriction suggestions might also be aplicable.) You don't so much change the rules as focus on a subset of them.

The suggestion above still allows plenty of freedom, but does have consequences that change a great deal of the course of play. For example, with the half levels in Rogue restriction, no PC will cast a Fireball before 10th level, so "low-magic" (or may just "slow-magic") is a consequence, not a rule in and of itself.

Hope that helps.

 

[Kemrain]

What it comes down to, is how much your setting is influenced by the game rules..
My personal feeling is that it's a shame that it tends to be, but for example, having 300 HP in a thief-like world does not encourage people to be sneaky.

Restrict people to Grim and Gritty hitpoints.
Restrict people to Human.
Restrict people to Rouge, Fighter, Barbarian and Expert classes.
Restrict availability of Weapons.

-E1ven

I agree that Grim and Gritty poses the feel I'm looking for in a Thief game. Combat is quick and deadly, and you'd better plan well if you intend to take on a well armed and armored foe. Since everyone's human anyways, the size rules will almost never come into effect, and the Undead are terrfying. Good choice there.

I'm consitering using the Warrior, Expert, and Spellcaster classes from Unearthed Arcana. Basically the same thing as the class restrictions you posed.

I'm also thinking of using Ranger Wickett's Revised Elements of Magic spell system, as it gives the freedom I'd need to throw around spells that no player would recognise, but would be fair and balanced within the game system.

I'd also like the game to be heavy with Prestige Classes, specifically 5 level PrC's; The City is full of groups who specialize, and I'd like rules to support this.

Does anyone else have any ideas?

- Kemrain the Keeper Acolyte.

 

[johnsemlak]

WHat are 'Grim and Gritty' HP rules?

 

[Kemrain]

This is Grim and Gritty.

WHat are 'Grim and Gritty' HP rules?

A rules system designed by Ken Hood to change how combat works. You get your Con in HP, plus a bonus (roughly) equal to your BAB. You have class-based AC bonuses (roughly equal to Base Save Bonuses), and armor grants DR equal to it's Armor bonus instead of boosting AC.

When everything comes together, it makes for a game where Combat isn't a math exercise, but a terrifying experience where death may come at any moment. It canges the feel of the game immensely, and it fits with the kind of combat a Thief RPG would need to reflect the atmosphere of the games.

You can find links in this thread, free for all:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82837
Ken recently updated his rules, but I'm a fan of his second-most-recent system, and I think I'll end up using it if I ever get this game off the ground.

- Kemrain the Unofficial Grim and Gritty v.3.3 Spokesbeing.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

If anyone has search capabilities, there was a thread many months ago in the House Rules forum (I think) that went into some detail on Thief-inspired D&D. Dr. Rictus was one of the posters, and was a designer on Thief and Thief II (as was Sagiro).

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

I actually used a simplified version of GURPS when I ran our two Thief: The Dark Project games. (Dumped a lot of detail out of the combat rules, strictly limited magic, and for a little cinematic fun, added in the cards from WEG's old Masterbook system.)

It worked great.

I'm not sure if you could do the same with a d20 system, but maybe you could. I'd probably try converting D20 Modern before messing around with D&D, though, just to get around the D&D-expectations problem.

--
such a great setting
ryan