Thief, the Dark Project, the RPG?

[Falkus]

I could see Azaran going after the Eye

Of course, that's brilliant. The Eye does have, after all, serious elements of necromancy, making all those zombies at the cathedral. Of course, I can't let the players on to what it actually is when Azaran gets around to hiring them to retrieve it. They'd figure out he was up to something pretty damn quick.

Do we ever find out where the Eye ends up? I'm guessing with the Hammers or the Keepers. I haven't played Thief 3 yet, though I'm hoping to have it within a week as part of celebration for making it alive through finals again.

Driving him to try to destroy the city and ressurect the dark gods of the precursors, like "N'lathotep."

Spell: Ressurect Dark Gods
Components: V, S, M, several sentient artifacts and one city with a population of at least one million.

Heh, no evil necromancer should be without this spell.


One thing I like about those grim and gritty rules is that allows you to make low level mages that can easily be dispathched or knocked out if taken by surprise, but overwhelming in power if they're in a position to fight back.

 

[Angcuru]

The eye ends up in a musuem in Thief 3, but you don't really learn where it's been since Garret killed the Trickster.

 

[Falkus]

I'll probably go with the Hammers holding on to it after the Dark Project, though I won't make it so easy for my players. After all, it's not really Thief until something goes wrong, right?

I was just checking out the wizards site again, and I ran across some good maps of a cathedral and a mansion in the map a week section that are going to come in handy.

 

[GlassJaw]

the Hide skill in Thief

This is a semi-bump but I also wanted to discuss some more mechanics.

One of the things I think would need to be expanded is the rules for Hide, especially in varied degress of darkness and light. One of my ideas was to bring back the % concealment rules and expand them to grant bonuses to Hide (maybe a +2 cirumstance bonus at each level). Something like this perhaps:

10% - average lighted room, shadows from objects, etc
20% - some shadows, single candle, torch, or lantern, etc
30% - moderate shadows, light from adjacent room or down the hall, etc
40% - heavy shadows, moonlight
50% - complete darkness

Or you could go even one step further and completely remove the darkness/light rules from concealment and create a new list. Each "step" from total visibility/lighting towards complete darkness would grant a bonus.

Anyway, just some ideas. One of my motivations is that for a setting like this, I would use a "grittier" wound and damage system. I want to give the players some incentive to actually use things like Hide and concealment and cover. After all, that's a major factor of the Thief games and I don't think the current Hude rules are extensive enough.

 

[Falkus]

The d20 Modern manual has fairly good rules for concealment and hide actually. Let me just grab em:

Concealment/miss chance
One-quarter (light fog; light foliage): 10%
One-half (shadows; dense fog at 5 ft.): 20%
Three-quarters (dense foliage): 30%
Nine-tenths (near total darkness): 40%
Total (attacker blind; total darkness; smoke grenade; dense fog at 10 ft.): 50% and must guess target’s location


Three quarters concealment or cover, by the hide description, gives a +5 to hide checks, and nine tenths gives a +10. Full cover or concealment, obviously, automatically means you're hidden (hiding in shadows is a good trick, but no matter how observant the guard is, he's not going to see you through a wall). You need at least half cover or concealment to attempt a hide check.


I was also thinking of adding some modifications of d20 Modern feats to the grim and grity rules. In specific, knockout punch, but modifying it slightly to read: When making your first attack against a flat-footed opponent in a round (must be dealing nonlethal damage), treat a succesful attack as a critical hit. This would make it easier to sneak up behind a guard and blackjack him. What do you think?

Edit: And here's a full writeup. Insert obligatory copyright and OGL stuff here.

Blackjack
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +2, pounce ability.
Benefit: When making the character’s first attack with a sap or other nonlethal weapon against a flat-footed opponent who has been denied his dexterity bonus, treat a successful attack as a critical hit. This damage is nonlethal damage, and does not count as a critical hit for the purpose of determining the affects of a called shot.

Improved Blackjack
Prerequisites: Blackjack, base attack bonus +4, pounce ability.
Benefit: When making the character’s first attack with a sap or other nonlethal weapon against a flat-footed opponent who has been denied his dexterity bonus, treat a successful attack as a critical hit. Increase the multiplier of the critical hit by one (IE, a sap will have a critical multiplier of 3 instead of 2). The damage is nonlethal damage, and does not count as a critical hit for the purpose of determining the affects of a called shot.

 

[Kemrain]

I don't believe that the Hide skill should get a bonus from concealment, given that either cover or concealment is required to hide in the first place. It just seems backwards to me. It does make sense to use a greater degree of cover and concealment variables for combat, but I just can't see it on Hide checks. I mean, Hide vs. Spot is usually a fairly fair deal, and the fact that humans have poor night vision needn't be taken into account in the Hide rules. To be honest, a penalty to Spot would make more sense to me, but I'd be much more likley to simply state that guards that make spot checks to notice a thief in the shadow, and succede, see that something is amiss, not that there is an armed assailant in the corner. (I always hated the fact that the littlest noise made all the guards in the area shout "Thief!" or that a set of footsteps where there should be one is greeted with suspicion and violence. Same sort of idea.)

As useful as Hide already is, it makes Hide too powerful to give it bonuses from darkness, especially when darkness is less of a hamper to some critters than others. Good idea, I just can't agree with it.

- Kemrain the Concealed.

 

[Kemrain]

I was also thinking of adding some modifications of d20 Modern feats to the grim and grity rules. In specific, knockout punch, but modifying it slightly to read: When making your first attack against a flat-footed opponent in a round (must be dealing nonlethal damage), treat a succesful attack as a critical hit. This would make it easier to sneak up behind a guard and blackjack him. What do you think?

Edit: And here's a full writeup. Insert obligatory copyright and OGL stuff here.

Blackjack
Prerequisites: Sap proficiency, base attack bonus +2.
Benefit: When making the character’s first attack with a sap or other nonlethal weapon against a flat-footed opponent, treat a successful attack as a critical hit. This damage is nonlethal damage.

Improved Blackjack
Prerequisites: Sap proficiency, blackjack base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When making the character’s first attack with a sap or other nonlethal weapon against a flat-footed opponent, treat a successful attack as a critical hit. Increase the multiplier of the critical hit by one (IE, a sap will have a critical multiplier of 3 instead of 2). The damage is nonlethal damage

Not a bad idea, but I'd remove Sap Proficiency from the requirements, given that the feats themselves state that you could use another non-lethal damage source. Also note that your rule allows you to do this to people who have Uncanny Dodge, given that that allows you to retain your Dex and Class bonuse but doesn't keep you from being flatfooted.

I'd require, I dunno, 2d6 sneak attack damage for this, and get rid of the Sap proficiency. Not bad ideas.

I'd just like to point out an idea I had for the Grim and Gritty system...

Given that Uncanny Dodge makes you retain your Dex (and Class) bonuses to Defense unless you're practically helpless, it's an obscenely powerful ability that anyone worth their salt needs. To weaken it just a bit, my GM in the game I'm currently playing in has stated that Pounce (what sneak attack became, the bonus to hit and threat range) would still work on someone with uncanny dodge, it just wouldn't be as useful because the dodger retains his bonuses.

the day I realised that losing your Dex bonus means you lose your Class bonus was the day I fell in love with the system.

- Kemrain the Grim n' Gritty.

 

[GlassJaw]

it makes Hide too powerful to give it bonuses from darkness

I agree but I was just trying to brainstorm on ways to emulate the light jewel from Thief. Maybe you can't or do have to in d20, I don't know. I just think it would be cool if there was a mechanic for varying levels of light.

The d20 Modern manual has fairly good rules for concealment and hide actually. Let me just grab em:

I just checked out the SRD. I like those rules. Thanks.

 

[darkelfo]

I dunno about these rules. I think there should be a complete knock out rule. Even with multipliers from a critical hit, how much non-lethal damage is a successful sap attack going to do to a high-lvl fighter?

As it is its tough to setup a successful sneak attak in the thief world where there is little magic. I think a Thief-based DnD game would have to have a one-hit knock out rule.

The victim would not only have to be denied their dex modifier for surprise, but they would need to be unaware or unsuspectful of ANY danger. The thief would have to be completely hidden, make a move silently check and succeed on targeted hit to the back of the head.

That's a big setup for the guard to turn around and say, "thanks a lot, but I still have 30 hitpoints left and now you're dead."

Garrett is a huge weakling and can rarely go toe-to-toe. Even assuming he can, it's usually a last resort because of the noise created by combat. If I was playing in a DnD game I'd want strategic thinking to be rewarded. Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Falkus]

Not a bad idea, but I'd remove Sap Proficiency from the requirements, given that the feats themselves state that you could use another non-lethal damage source. Also note that your rule allows you to do this to people who have Uncanny Dodge, given that that allows you to retain your Dex and Class bonuse but doesn't keep you from being flatfooted.

Good point, I'll edit it.

I dunno about these rules. I think there should be a complete knock out rule. Even with multipliers from a critical hit, how much non-lethal damage is a successful sap attack going to do to a high-lvl fighter?

Well, I made these feats for grim and gritty. A twentieth level fighter would have about 40 hitpoints at maximum, assuming a constitution of 20. And by aiming for the head with this, you have a good chance of stunning the guard. Speaking of which, I should probably edit the rules again to make it a bit more balanced with the affects of criticals on called shots in Grim and Gritty.

The victim would not only have to be denied their dex modifier for surprise, but they would need to be unaware or unsuspectful of ANY danger. The thief would have to be completely hidden, make a move silently check and succeed on targeted hit to the back of the head.

I've been using that rule in my d20 Modern campaign, actually, where I let the party's martial artist to make coup de graces on enemies who are completely unaware of his presence and have no reason to suspect any trouble.

Another thing from d20 Modern, if you want to use full DnD hitpoints instead of Grim and Greaty, is reducing the massive damage save from 50 to the character's con.


Another thing I'd like to suggest is that the ranger class would probably best fit in the game by using the non-spell casting variant from the Complete Warrior.