Things I Miss....

[Water Bob]

This is a multi-edition post.

I've played AD&D 1E, AD&D 2E, and a d20 D&D 3.5 based game extensively. I'll say that I really enjoy all three of those editions of the game. My favorite is the Conan RPG (based on 3.5), but I could easily play standard D&D 3.5 or either of the AD&D games and have a blast.

I'd probably like 4E, too, if I ever gave it a shot (Why? I've got tons of rule systems. I don't see any reason to pick up another.)

There is one thing I miss, though, that began in AD&D and became stronger in AD&D 2E, but was then dropped by the time 3rd edition rolled around.

What am I talking about?

Those little rules that they took out to streamline the game (?), or, for whatever reason, became missing after 2E.

What rules.

Remember in 2E there was this nifty chart that gave weapons certain modifiers vs. certain types armor? AD&D 1E had a chart like this in the PHB, too, but it was implemented a bit differently.

I miss those!

That rule gave you a reason to use a mace over a longsword. The long sword might do more damage, but blunt weapons tended to hit more often due to that chart's modifiers!

So, you might have a +2 to hit chainmail with your mace and do 1d6 damage. Your buddy with the longsword would do 1d8 damage, but he's -2 to hit vs. chain.

That was a neat little rule.

It also gave some credence between scale, splint, bronze plate, and such, since each had different modifiers for pointed, edged, and blunt weapons.

I do, in deed, miss that rule.



Another rule I miss from 2E? Rate Of Fire. Man, in the right hands, someone with darts could do some real damage. They only did 1d3, but you got 3 attacks every round! If you had a STR bonus, that applied. Darts became viable weapons.

Reduce 'em to 1 attack per round, and...yeah...why would anyone ever go with a dart?



OK, a third rule I miss: Speed Factors. SF's were handled differently in 1E, but in 2E, your weapon's SF adjusted your nish. Bigger, heavier weapons had big SF's, making the guy with the dagger tend to go much earlier than the guy with the two handed sword.

There were a couple of problems with the 2E implementation of SF's. That's probably why they too them out.

But, man, it sure made sense that some dude with a big, honkin' weapon would most likely go late in the round, swinging that big bad boy around.



And then in 1E AD&D, there was a neat little rule, too. You rolled 1d6 for initiative. No modifiers were allowed (except for bows). When you had a tie (which came up fairly often when rolling 1d6 for each side), you compared the speed factor number of each combatant's weapon. This was how 1E implemented "speed factors". If one weapon had a SF of half that of the other (or 5 less as well...my memory is a bit hazy on the details), teh smaller weapon got an extra attack that round.

Thus, taking a dagger to a 1E fight wasn't that bad of an idea. The guy with the two handed sword, going late in the round, still had a huge edge on you (as it should be, dagger vs. two-hander), but if the dagger boy got lucky, he'd roll a tie on initiative and then get in one, maybe two, extra attacks for free.


I'm kinda sorry they took some of this stuff out.



What about you guys? Are there things you miss that have been discarded from D&D as the editions change?

 

[pming]

Hiya.

Agreed. I've been playing for 3 decades plus.

Then again, I still play 1e and Hackmaster. The thing with 'earlier editions' is that rules had feeling. They gave different situations different feelings and flavor. A lot of folks see that as some kind of "flaw", but to me and my players (most anyway), it's a BIG plus. The one thing I didn't like in 1e...unarmed combat (wrestling, pugilism, etc). That was a bit much...

Still, I like the little differences. We played 2e for about three years total (2 years more or less straight, and then little mini-campaigns here and there). We did like some of the changes, but we all hated the "Players first" direction it was headed.

Hackmaster...best of both worlds, IMHO.

PS: I belive it was "more than 5" difference in SF to get the extra attack.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Bedrockgames]

I am playing a 2E game now (after over ten years of playing other editions and games), and I know exactly what you mean. Lots of interesting little gems in 2E (and 1E as well). One thing you get in 2E that you don't get in 3E or 4E is because it is less streamlined and doesn't have a unified mechanic, many of the little subsystems feels more controlled and contained (at least to me).

 

[ThirdWizard]

Sometimes I bring up the old Combat and Tactics critical hit charts, but my players always quickly change the subject. Something about gnomes and head injuries, I think.

 

[Rhun]

I miss some of the older rules as well. While I wholeheartedly enjoy playing 3.5, I really wish there were more reasons to choose different weapons.

 

[scruffygrognard]

I miss level titles!

Not that I used them, but they added a certain charm to the game.

 

[jedavis]

Hey, speaking as a 3.x player, Codex Martialis adds a lot of this kind of thing back into 3e. It might be worth a look for those who like 3e but miss weapon speed and variable bonuses against different armor types.

 

[Water Bob]

While I wholeheartedly enjoy playing 3.5, I really wish there were more reasons to choose different weapons.

Yeah, 2E actually changed your AC based on the weapon being used by your enemy.

For example:

A fighter is proficient with both footman's mace and longsword. He fights an opponent wearing chainmail and using a small shield. With the footman's mace, our fighter will strike against an AC 6 target and do 1d6+1 damage if he hits. Using a longsword, our fighter will strike against an AC 2 target and do 1d8 damage if he hits.

That's pretty cool. Without those AC adjustments, players would always pick the longsword over the footman's mace because the longsword did more damage (although the average is the same: 1-8 vs. 2-7).

Clearly, though, in this case, the footman's mace is a superior weapon since it will do about the same damage but basically gets a +4 to hit modifier.

I really wish they hadn't taken that kind of stuff out of the game. That's the kind of detail I feed on.





I'll note that the Conan d20 game does a pretty good job of having different reasons for picking different weapons. A player doesn't always go for the weapon that does the most damage.

First off, in the Conan game, most weapons do more damage than their D&D counter-parts. A dirk is just as likely to do 1d6 damage as it is 1d4. Spears and one-handed battleaxes do 1d10. Warswords (basically, a bastard sword) do 1d12. And, with a two-handed greatsword, you can do 2-18 damage (that 1d10+1d8).

Your normal picks all do about the same damage--usually in the 1d10 range. So, picking weapons based solely on how much damage they produce becomes less important. You're going to get a weapon that deals a lot of damage--because weapons are deadly in this game.

Conan handles armor by having it reduce damage (not make you harder to hit with an AC bonus). But, there's an attack style the offers, also, that allows you to try to defeat armor--basically making called shots to attack your enemy where he is not armored or where his armor is weak. This is called Finesse style combat, and instead of your attacks being based on STR, they are based on DEX. You want a quick, light weapon if you are going to fight with this style. It also gives those characters with high DEX but weak STR scores a reason to be good at combat.

So, if you're a big, tough hombre, you'll fight using your STR, trying to punch through armor, break it, knock a hole in it.

If you're a skinny Zamorian thief, with a STR 12 but DEX 18, you'll use a dirk, arming sword (short sword), or poinard to dance around your opponent, take advantage of your superior DEX, and make quick, lightning jabs at your enemy at his neck, exposed parts of his arms and legs, maybe under the armpit where armor is weak.

Weapons in the Conan game have other important stats, besides damage. Players consider the Armor Piercing value of the weapon--which is the weapon's ability (combined with the character's STR mod) to be used to punch through armor. Some weapons may do superior damage but have light armor piercing capability. With other weapons, the reverse may be true.

For example, a cutlass does 1d10 damage with AP 2. A warhammer does 1d6 damage (almost half as much) but comes with an armor piercing score of AP 7.

Therefore, you'll want to use a cutlass when fighting un-armored foes*. That's why it's a favorite of pirates. The warhammer can bash through just about anything, and that's why you'll usually find it used on the mass battlefield, the favorite of mercenaries.

So, in the Conan game, besides the usual considerations of reach, damage, and how many hands a weapon takes to wield properly, the Conan game also has a player consider how the weapon will be used (light weapons for the DEX based Finess combat style; heavy weapons for the normal STR combat style) and who it will be used against (the weapon's AP rating).

Heck, in the Conan game, even shields come with damage ratings. And, for the first time in any D&D game, there is a reason to use a buckler--because it's lighter, more maneuverable, and therefore does more damage as an off-hand weapon than the larger, heavier, less easily manipulated shields.



*And, you will come across a lot of unarmored foes in the game because the Conan RPG allows for two types of defense. You've got your STR based parry defense, which is closest to your typical D&D AC (except tha armor has nothing to do with being hit); and, you've got the DEX based Dodge defense--in this game, you can build a viable character that is good in combat and wears nothing but a loincloth, always dodging incoming blows. You're not tied to wearing armor in order to keep your character alive.

I miss level titles!

Not that I used them, but they added a certain charm to the game.

Good one!

Yeah, some of those titles didn't even make sense....but I kinda miss 'em too!

 

[Ulrick]

My favorite:

Weapon damage vs. Large Creatures.

Broadsword 2-8/2-7 - okay, meh
Longsword 1-8/1-12 -all right, that works
Short sword 1-6/1-8 - halflings can have a shot, too
Two-Handed Sword 1-10/3-18!!!

You mean I get to roll 3d6 damage against that ogre! Awesome!

 

[Starfox]

I miss rolling 1s12 to turn undead in 1ed. I know it was stupid to have a separate subsystem for so many different parts of the game as 1ed had, but I was always fond of the dodecahedron. So much, in fact, that I once ran a The Fantasy Trip mod that used d12 for all combat rolls.