Things that Irk Me about DnD (Somewhat long, kinda ranty)

[Thanee]

Especially now since its grown so far beyond a combat-simulation system for 2 people to use in their basement.

Has it ever been like this?

I know the old boxed set edition of D&D (not the very original, tho), AD&D 1st and 2nd and now D&D 3rd, but none seem to fit that description.

The Arcane/Divine divide: ...

Heh. Yeah, I see where you are coming from, altho the biggest "problem" with D&D magic probably is the whole preparation stuff, which is rather weird, if you think about it.

I don't have a problem with it, however, neither with the arcane/divine split. It's just two different methods to use magic, by study or by divine gift.

Also springing from this is another issue: I personally feel that wizards/sorcerers should be the masters of magic, as a whole.

IMHO, they are (if psionics are excluded). Yes, they cannot heal, and yes, clerics do some things better, but still, all things considered, arcane magic beats divine magic hands down, except in a few very specific areas.

The Cleric class: ...

Yeah, the cleric is kinda weird as a class. It tries to be too much at once, so to say.

In another game I like a lot (Midgard, a german RPG system), there are Healers and White Magicians (those can't really heal, however) and Priests and they all have very distinct abilities and spell lists (using the same big spell list, but not everyone can learn everything from it).

Magical Sterotyping: I kind of dislike the fact that all spellcasting classes have it spelled out exactly where their magic comes from. Wizards get their magic totally from study. Sorcerers totally from inborn power. Clerics pray to gods or causes. Obviously this is easily ignored, but I’d still like it if there weren’t as much pigeonholing.

Hmmm... can't really say, that I see the problem here.

Magic Item Dependency: I’d like to at least have a variant were the power of your character and the whole CR system isn’t so strongly based around magic items, making it easy for magic items to be a little less common and a little more special.

Yeah, that's one really bad thing about high level D&D, where your character's magic items are often more defining than class abilities, skills, feats and whatnot.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

D&D was never supposed to encompass all fantasy, it wasn't designed to do so, and it doesn't do it well when forced to. ... The designers have never, ever, wanted to create a universal fantasy game, so complaining that they didn't is kinda pointless.

Yeah, that's also why I think D20 (which still is D&D as defined by the SRD) fails to be the generic system that WotC would like it to be.

Some D20 systems do a good job at moving away from some D&D stereotypical images (i.e. replacing the whole magic system is absolutely mandatory), but they still retain a lot of what makes D&D and so never achieve to fully grow into something unique.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Turanil]

I also agree with everything in this rant. However, thank the OGL and the ability for third party publishers and anyone on the Internet, to propose their variants. It's now easy to find priest classes with weak fighting abilities and more skills; you can buy Medieval Player's Manual and get a game description of the Christian faith which is no longer ludicrous; there is Arcana Unearthed by Monte Cook which presents a fine alternative, and renews the genre; etc.

 

[Asmor]

A cleric isn't a priest. It's as simple as that. A fighter's not a bodyguard and a bard's not a musician.

The classes might have civilian analogs, but they are not civilians. They are adventurers!

A cleric (and keep in mind a cleric is not neccessarily good) primarily focuses on channelling positive and negative energy. Divine magic, thus, is primarily based around that. It might manipulate elemental energy as well, but it does so through positive and negative energy. Arcane magic, on the other hand, is about playing with reality. You don't channel anything, you just do what you want to do. You create balls of fire to lob down hallways, you make yourself fly.

Arcane magic is all about you. You learn to harness and control everything. Divine magic is about the world. You use the positive and negative energy that permeates all things, in the case of clerics you do this with the aid of a god. Rangers and Druids, on the other hand, do this through being in touch with nature. That is the difference between arcane and divine magic. Arcane comes from within, forcing your will on the outside world, and divine comes from without, shaping and molding what already is there.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Ok, as far as the arcane/divine split goes, I'm actually good with that. Most fantasy novels I've read separate out the guys who can heal from the guys who can shoot lazers or disentegrate stuff. Do you want some guy who has a forte of turning things to dust trying to cure you of an infection? What if he misses?

We all know that the true masters of magic are Mystic Theurges anyway. = ) Just take your cleric levels in your local god of magic. However, given that Divine casters do gain some nice lazer-type spells later on, it might be nice to see wizards gain a couple of emergency stop-bleeding type spells.

Again, I don't mind the setup of clerics, so much as I do the fact that adventuring wizards gain one (measly) D4 for HP, can't wear armor, use crap weapons, and start with one spell, yet are expected to be slogging through dungeons alongside the rest of the crew. You're right in that the comparison of the two leaves wizards short (especially at early levels).

Agreed on the magical stereotyping. Of course, I remember some text about barbarians distrusting wizards, who use "book magic". So I tend not to loan the flavor text much precidence.

And yeah, the whole loot issue does get annoying. Especially when DM's hold out, and are surprized when people die.

 

[Zappo]

This is correct. At least this time around, though, they took the pains to make the design a bit more modular, so that it is more easily tweaked into something else (like Arcana Unearthed). The design is not generic, but it is reasonably easy to mold, which is nice.

True. I like to say that D&D is "generic, but not universal". It doesn't do a single setting, but it doesn't do all possible settings either. That is a Good Thing; there is such a thing as being too generic.

Yeah, that's also why I think D20 (which still is D&D as defined by the SRD) fails to be the generic system that WotC would like it to be.

WotC didn't want D20 to be THE universal system, at least they didn't when 3E was released. I recall one of the early Dancey articles saying that he wanted D20 to do a lot of settings well, but not all of them by a long shot. I don't know if the corporate stance has changed since then. Certainly there are lots of things that D20 just can't do well (just like D&D can't do well certain fantasy settings).

Some D20 systems do a good job at moving away from some D&D stereotypical images (i.e. replacing the whole magic system is absolutely mandatory), but they still retain a lot of what makes D&D and so never achieve to fully grow into something unique.

But is that a failure of the D20 system itself, or of the designers who are afraid to use D20's full potential? After all, there are plenty of D20 games that have nothing in common with D&D except 'being D20'. Maybe some of those games are similar to D&D by design; uniqueness for uniqueness' sake isn't necessarily a good thing.

I think it depends on whether one wants to create a "D&D setting" or a "D20 game". The first case means starting from D&D and modifying stuff: you're bound to retain most of D&D's flavour. The second means starting from scratch (ie, the bare d20) and building up: if you end up with D&D elements, it's because you actively added them.

 

[WayneLigon]

The Arcane/Divine divide There's a fair amount of it in fantasy literature, though almost no fantasy book not inspired in some means by D&D has it where each side has magic in equal amounts. In most campaigns I run, I keep it strictly divided; the two viewpoints are generally relatively benign enemies of each other. I don't even let people multiclass arcana and divine casters of any kind in most games.

Divine Magic being healing-based. You answered your own question. It's pretty obvious that the D&D cleric model is the Knight Templar of myth that not only was a good fighter but had some mystical ability as well.

Mages being masters of magic. Probably done to keep them from being unbalanced; if they can do everything with magic, including healing and defence, then why do you need any of the other classes. Answer: you don't In other words, most of the questions related to this are 'game' related and not connected to anything resembling 'reality'. You do what you can to create niches for people so they can specialize in something. If you have a true generalist, then there's no need for classes.

Magical Sterotyping I think it's one of those things left to you.

Magic Item Dependency Don't see this in any campaign I've been in. People keep harping about it, and I never see it. If anything, I see the opposite: for the first time, people have good enough abilities to take on challenges without needing magic weapons. Usually you don't need them until you start fighting creatures that have serious resistances, and even then not all the time. You just need to do more damage to them to overcome the DR.

 

[RangerWickett]

Merlion, you think the way I think. Have you taken a look at Elements of Magic? You can download a sampler of the revised rules here: http://www.enworld.org/enpublishing/modules.php?op=modload&name=Web_Links&file=index&req=visit&lid=3

 

[Ibram]

I've had problems with the cleric class, as I have seen its powers used to the max, and thus have seen its true horror. I do have a problem with the idea that everyone who casts healing spells is an armor wearing wall (which is what the most efficent clerics become), but then I have always had a problem with the whole "ever present" magic bit.

How did I get around this? I've created my own Mystic class to take over the divine aspect of the game. The class more closely represents my idea of what a divine caster should be: a holy man/woman.

IMC magic comes from the Aether, Mystics are granted the power to use it while wizards study its secrets. This isnt commonly known, the general perception is that a Mystic is calling on the gods, while a wizard is just meddeling (there are no Sorcerers IMC).

You can balance out the magic item dependency by using leveled creatures. Instead of using say an elemental or a daemon just use an Orc or a Goblin with levels in something.

 

[elforcelf]

As someone who has read for 25+years all I could about history,religion,science;I think from what I read that science/magic/religion was the same thing till the 18th century.elforcelf.