Things that Irk Me about DnD (Somewhat long, kinda ranty)

[LostSoul]

Characters can't learn to dodge. (D20 Modern, Star Wars and some other D20 settings solved this problem with a class bonus to Defense. I vastly prefer this to using only magic items and Dex to boost your AC.)

Characters do learn to dodge. That's one of the things that Hit Points cover.

 

[LostSoul]

Nothing whatsoever. This depends on which xp rules you use, which is a function of gm choice, not class.

You are right. I am looking for a way to rationalize Clerics gaining levels under the standard CR system so that it "works" for me.

Some things I've thought of:

-Clerics see the world through their faith. Any challenge they overcome helps to strengthen that worldview.
-Clerics learn more about themselves and gain a deeper understanding of how they channel divine energy by going through challenges.
-Clerics (and any other class, really) should be able to gain experience by meditating for a time. Fighters train, Wizards study, etc. Maybe you could give characters 100 XP times Level for each set time period that they engage in this behaviour if they pass some kind of check (maybe a attribute check vs DC 10 + level).


I'm sure there are others... but none of these really "works" for me.

 

[LostSoul]

First, quantify 'faith', then come up with some hard and fast rules for it so there's no arguing about when someone goes up a level.

I don't really want to change the rules for XP, just come up with some convincing Fluff text that helps me suspend my disbelief.

 

[Vindicator]

Mikebr99 had the same issue. Two things about this:
2) In my opinion, the paladin is *not* the champion of a god or a servant of a church. He's the ultimate champion of Good, not of a god, and he is granted his abilities by the purity of his heart - no god can choose to take them away. Granted, I didn't always think of it this way, but it seems much better to me.

You do realize, though, that this isn't how D&D views the paladin...

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Characters do learn to dodge. That's one of the things that Hit Points cover.

Your AC boosters are more important than the hit points you're gaining from class levels, so they're still outpacing your skills.

Besides, I like to see some actual differences between duelists and tanks besides "I had to spend this much cash on my Dex-boosting item."

 

[I'm A Banana]

You do realize, though, that this isn't how D&D views the paladin...

Bzzzzt, wrong. Check the 3e PH; it's all right there in black and off-white....The Paladin isn't Deity-based, he's just honor-based.

 

[teitan]

Yeah, but why does one advance in Cleric levels by bashing in the skulls of goblins and ogres? If it's just a matter of faith, wouldn't it be better to sit in a monestary and contemplate the nature of god?

Well, yeah you get XP from combat etc. but you don't automatically level up, unless your DM rules that way. It takes time and understanding the application of what you have learned to achieve a new level. It is during this downtime that you "level up" so to speak. While in combat, you usually use a lot of combat magic, well while using that magic etc. you gain insight into your capabilities and how to channel the energies of your faith to better advantage and then you can apply them to situations outside of combat for those spells not used while fighting. It all feeds into itself.

Jason

 

[teitan]

This has long been a gripe of mine with the D&D view of clerics:

If the cleric is a crusading knight dedicated to protecting the righteous, what's a paladin?

Ok, a Paladin vs. a Cleric... not a lot of arguements that one can come up with in the Holy, Crusading warrior thing is there except for this...

Clerics CHOOSE to be what they are and Paladins are chosen. When I think of a Cleric I think of a Templar, someone who chose to serve God and learned to use divine magic to be able to better serve his deity. He channels (again) his faith through his holy symbols etc. While Clerics are essentially Templars in design, they are not Knights per se. But we get confusion when comparing it to the Realmsian flavour where a cleric is a prophet and priest as opposed to a pilgrim with strong faith and the attempt to integrate 1e clerics and 2e priests... WIthin the Realms deities grant their spells to their clerics so why are all clerics warrior types? Well, consider that the Realmsian deities are not necessarily a unified pantheon. EVeryone is crusading against good (Evil types) or against Evil (good and neutral types, with a few exceptions) so Clerics are trained in combat in case a holy war breaks out in their region. With sooooo many prophets, that is a lot of crusading.

If you look at the core Paladin he does not have to choose a deity to sponsor his powers. The stong belief in what is Lawful and Good that a Paladin has sworn himself to fuels him. Sure, some Paladins "choose" a deity but if you really think about it, it is more like the deity chooses him to embody his tenets and ideals, even in the Realms. A Paladin is a gods CHAMPION in that sense and not his prophet, at least in the Realms. Paladins are both above Clerics and below. Above as in they are chosen by their god and below in that they aren't their god's prophet.

Jason

 

[teitan]

You do realize, though, that this isn't how D&D views the paladin...

Yes and no. Like I said in a previous post, Paladins don't have to choose a deity in the core rules. In the Realms they NEED a deity, but in standard rules, nope.

Jason

 

[Doctor_Skull]

I've been playing the Conan OGL game for a couple of months now and it deals with a lot of the problems the original poster brought up.

There is only 1 spell-casting class in Conan, "The Scholar". There is no divine/arcane split--all sorcery is the same, and it's all slightly icky.

Both priests and wizards are subsumed under the Scholar class, but not all Scholars need even to learn magic, in fact the priests of the dominant "good" diety are forbidden to learn magic at all.

After reaching 4-5th level or so, we really have not missed magic all that much. No one has a magic item. Only one character has a level in Scholar (thief-4/scholar-1) and has not cast a spell yet. Of course evil guys throw spells at us, but we can live with that.

Conan allows natural Hit Point healing at a much faster rate than D&D, to make up for the lack of clerical healing, and this does the trick.

We haven't missed Clerics, Wizards, or Magic Items in the least. A d20 based fantasy game can work just fine without those things.