D&D 5E Things that make you go Hmmm, Starter Set **spoilers**

[KarinsDad]

I just got the starter set yesterday and was looking through it, preparing for next weekend's session.

There were a few things that made me go "WT?".

Please list things that you noticed, so that I can review those specific sections and make an adjustment. I'll list more when I find them as I go through it in more detail today.


I'll try to make these a little vague, just in case there are players who read this. I don't want to ruin anyone's game too much.

1) After the first encounter, the PCs will probably head down a trail where there are two opportunities to make passive perception checks. The DC is 12 which every PC can make except the Rogue. For the first opportunity, it only occurs if the PCs are actively searching. Err, what? The entire purpose of passive perception is that the PCs are NOT actively searching.

2) The second opportunity is only for the person leading the group. This check is DC 15. Nobody in the pregenerated party has more than a 13. In order to create your own PC out of the Basic Rules who could make a DC 15 passive perception, you would need to make a Cleric with a 16 Wis and that Cleric would need to be in the front of the party. Either that or you would need to make a non-Cleric, but a 16 for a non-Cleric would be extremely rare (and that PC would still need to be in the front of the group).

3) Every pregenerated PC has a 13 passive perception except the Rogue. I guess that Perception is a pretty important skill such that even the Wizard takes it. But, the Rogue does not. With backgrounds, there is no way I would play a Rogue without taking Perception.

4) There are a lot of potions of healing. I assume that the answer to the lack of healing in 4E is that we will be handing out potions of healing. Just going to each treasure section, I counted 12 potions of healing in 8 out of 28 treasure caches (or 28% of caches had an average of 1.5 per cache). So, the designers sometimes hand out more than one. No other potion or scroll shows up more than once that I saw. That's a design fix if DMs are expected to hand out that many healing potions that frequently.

5) Speaking of magic items, the starter set has 7 of them which are not potions or scrolls. 0 are found in part 1 of the adventures, 1 is found in part 2 (the evil guy at the very end), 1 is found in part 3 (at the very beginning) and the other 5 are found in part 4 (out of 7 treasure caches in part 4). So, it's really magic item heavy at the end. This also exceeds the 23 magic items handed out in 20 levels aspect of normal magic that was mentioned, unless Mearls actually was not including replacement items (i.e. the +1 sword replaced with the +2 sword is still considered one item). Granted, I get it that PCs should find few magic items at real low level, but finding 5 in the last dozen rooms or so???

6) One of the items is a magic breastplate. One of the most coveted items in the game for some classes because of the disadvantage for most armor for stealth (granted, this rule is only in the Basic Rules and not the Starter Set rules). But if players continue with these PCs, then one of the most coveted armors in the game is already handed out as opposed to being quested for. Meh.

 

[BryonD]

1) After the first encounter, the PCs will probably head down a trail where there are two opportunities to make passive perception checks. The DC is 12 which every PC can make except the Rogue. For the first opportunity, it only occurs if the PCs are actively searching. Err, what? The entire purpose of passive perception is that the PCs are NOT actively searching.

2) The second opportunity is only for the person leading the group. This check is DC 15. Nobody in the pregenerated party has more than a 13. In order to create your own PC out of the Basic Rules who could make a DC 15 passive perception, you would need to make a Cleric with a 16 Wis and that Cleric would need to be in the front of the party. Either that or you would need to make a non-Cleric, but a 16 for a non-Cleric would be extremely rare (and that PC would still need to be in the front of the group).

Keep in mind that as a "starter" set there is some a presumption that everyone is new to the system and a fair number of players are new altogether.
I think this is by design so that an example of how passive perception works is easily provided, followed by an example of why it can't be always relied upon.

3) Every pregenerated PC has a 13 passive perception except the Rogue. I guess that Perception is a pretty important skill such that even the Wizard takes it. But, the Rogue does not. With backgrounds, there is no way I would play a Rogue without taking Perception.

I dunno. It does seem counter-intuitive from the "starter" perspective. But a poor perception rogue could still be a fun character. There is no absolute obligation. Though, again, yeah it seems your default example would/should agree with what would be the overwhelming tendency.

4) There are a lot of potions of healing. I assume that the answer to the lack of healing in 4E is that we will be handing out potions of healing. Just going to each treasure section, I counted 12 potions of healing in 8 out of 28 treasure caches (or 28% of caches had an average of 1.5 per cache). So, the designers sometimes hand out more than one. No other potion or scroll shows up more than once that I saw. That's a design fix if DMs are expected to hand out that many healing potions that frequently.

Heh, from my perspective I thought it was an insane amount of healing given that they heal 100% every night. But, again, they may simply be overcompensating here. They want new groups to "win" and be happy.

5) Speaking of magic items, the starter set has 7 of them which are not potions or scrolls. 0 are found in part 1 of the adventures, 1 is found in part 2 (the evil guy at the very end), 1 is found in part 3 (at the very beginning) and the other 5 are found in part 4 (out of 7 treasure caches in part 4). So, it's really magic item heavy at the end. This also exceeds the 23 magic items handed out in 20 levels aspect of normal magic that was mentioned, unless Mearls actually was not including replacement items (i.e. the +1 sword replaced with the +2 sword is still considered one item). Granted, I get it that PCs should find few magic items at real low level, but finding 5 in the last dozen rooms or so???

6) One of the items is a magic breastplate. One of the most coveted items in the game for some classes because of the disadvantage for most armor for stealth (granted, this rule is only in the Basic Rules and not the Starter Set rules). But if players continue with these PCs, then one of the most coveted armors in the game is already handed out as opposed to being quested for. Meh.

Was 23 items per 20 levels for a party or per player? I didn't see the note.
IMO the *find the magic item* moment is central to the D&D experience and it needs to happen often. The issue cited for other versions of the game is partly the glut of items but moreso the reality that magic items end up becoming more important than the character in some ways. If the items are less impactful then the main issue is resolved.

 

[KarinsDad]

Keep in mind that as a "starter" set there is some a presumption that everyone is new to the system and a fair number of players are new altogether.
I think this is by design so that an example of how passive perception works is easily provided, followed by an example of why it can't be always relied upon.

I think you missed the point. The passive check only occurs if the PCs are actively searching. It does not happen if they are not actively searching. What kind of passive check is that? It teaches the DM the wrong way to use passive checks.

Was 23 items per 20 levels for a party or per player?

Per party, even if the party size changes. Same number regardless of party size (which is also dumb).



7) As far as I can tell, using a Healing Potion in combat is almost always a sub-optimal choice. It appears to use the "Use an Object" action which means that the PC heals up for ~7 as an action and the enemy has a good chance of hitting him for 4 to 10 (NPC dependent) in return. One use of it in combat would be if a PC had a melee NPC in his face, he drinks the potion to give himself a hit point buffer, and then he moves away and provokes an attack. The slim advantage of this over just using Disengage would be that if the foe misses, the PC has moved away AND is healed a bit.

WotC hands out a boatload of healing potions and their use in combat is limited. Using up an action to heal yourself would usually only be beneficial if your PC were not being attacked. But if your PC is not being attacked, it's usually a better idea to help out your team by attacking yourself.

 

[BryonD]

I think you missed the point. The passive check only occurs if the PCs are actively searching. It does not happen if they are not actively searching. What kind of passive check is that? It teaches the DM the wrong way to use passive checks.

Can you reference that? I may very well have misunderstood the intent. But looking at page 60 of Basic 0.1 it gives an example of stealth being opposed by a passive perception for "even if they aren't searching". So I interpreted it that way.

Per party, even if the party size changes. Same number regardless of party size (which is also dumb).

OK, dumb rule and they don't seem to be following the dumb rule. dunno what to say

7) As far as I can tell, using a Healing Potion in combat is almost always a sub-optimal choice. It appears to use the "Use an Object" action which means that the PC heals up for ~7 as an action and the enemy has a good chance of hitting him for 4 to 10 (NPC dependent) in return. One use of it in combat would be if a PC had a melee NPC in his face, he drinks the potion to give himself a hit point buffer, and then he moves away and provokes an attack. The slim advantage of this over just using Disengage would be that if the foe misses, the PC has moved away AND is healed a bit.

WotC hands out a boatload of healing potions and their use in combat is limited. Using up an action to heal yourself would usually only be beneficial if your PC were not being attacked. But if your PC is not being attacked, it's usually a better idea to help out your team by attacking yourself.

sure, but you have plenty of reset buttons after each combat. At least for HP

 

[KarinsDad]

Can you reference that? I may very well have misunderstood the intent. But looking at page 60 of Basic 0.1 it gives an example of stealth being opposed by a passive perception for "even if they aren't searching". So I interpreted it that way.

Precisely. Adventurers are typically assumed to be alert and prepared. They are not assumed to be walking down the street looking at their navels.

Basic Rules: "Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat." (page 65)

And: "Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats."

The examples given are navigating, drawing a map, tracking, and foraging.

The PCs are typically not doing any of these in this scenario. They are following a trail. They are not doing other tasks. They are expecting trouble. They should get passive perception if a threat comes up. That is when passive perception is supposed to be used. The threat is there, so the DM determines if anyone notices it without rolling dice and WITHOUT waiting for the players to declare that they are searching.

In the Starter Set, the passive wisdom/perception rule is being used AFTER the players declare they are searching which is backwards. The Starter Set assumes that the PCs are not being alert unless the players declare that they are being alert.

sure, but you have plenty of reset buttons after each combat. At least for HP

If you survive combat. There are few "help me survive combat" heals in the game so far. Healing potions take an action as do spells at the moment. If someone is healing, then they are not attacking. If there are 5 NPCs and 5 PCs and 1 of the PCs is healing himself or another PC, then there are 5 attacking NPCs and 4 attacking PCs that round. Action economy at that point is in favor of the NPCs. The other factor is that the heal tends to be less potent than the attacks (with the exception of low level NPC foes). This changes a bit at higher level, but to maintain that status quo, the PC healer has to be using his highest level spells in order to offset the greater damage of higher level foes.

 

[BryonD]

In the Starter Set, the passive wisdom/perception rule is being used AFTER the players declare they are searching which is backwards. It is assumed that the PCs are being alert.

Ok, I didn't notice that restriction in the starter set. I used it as the rules state in general. I'm not going to assume that the left hand knew what the right hand was doing when this module was put together. If you use the rules as stated in the basic set it works, so all is good. If WotC already dropped one ball in how they put the module together then nothing is new there. As I said, I just did what made sense and it worked fine, so I didn't notice this issue.

If you survive combat. There are few "help me survive combat" heals in the game so far. Healing potions take an action as do spells at the moment. If someone is healing, then they are not attacking. If there are 5 NPCs and 5 PCs and 1 of the PCs is healing himself or another PC, then there are 5 attacking NPCs and 4 attacking PCs that round. Action economy at that point is in favor of the NPCs. The other factor is that the heal tends to be less potent than the attacks (with the exception of low level NPC foes). This changes a bit at higher level, but to maintain that status quo, the PC healer has to be using his highest level spells in order to offset the greater damage of higher level foes.

OK, it is still why, IM (otherwise uninformed regarding WotC's agenda) O, there are a lot of healing potions there.

Again, you may see a pattern that I'm not going to presume a WotC module doesn't have flaws. So be it. If they are easy to resolve, I'm good.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ok, I didn't notice that restriction in the starter set.

...

Again, you may see a pattern that I'm not going to presume a WotC module doesn't have flaws. So be it. If they are easy to resolve, I'm good.

Hence the reason for this thread. I only had about an hour to look at the adventures and noticed more than I expected (I focused on the first few encounters, the magic items, and the pregenerated PCs).

I expect there to be flaws. I just want to know what they are so that I can run a great session next weekend. Our current 4E group kind of likes 4E and I am as DM admittedly attempting to get them to switch to 5E (because of the fact that I do consider it generally an improvement on 1E/2E/3E and have a lot of nostalgia for those versions).

I suspect that healing will be one of the weaknesses of 5E and I might have to add an "Oh Shoot" house rule, but not until I've played the game for a while.

 

[Kobold Stew]

So there are three issues,

1. Perception
2. Healing potions and
3. Magic items.

I'll deal with the third.

5) Speaking of magic items, the starter set has 7 of them which are not potions or scrolls. 0 are found in part 1 of the adventures, 1 is found in part 2 (the evil guy at the very end), 1 is found in part 3 (at the very beginning) and the other 5 are found in part 4 (out of 7 treasure caches in part 4). So, it's really magic item heavy at the end. This also exceeds the 23 magic items handed out in 20 levels aspect of normal magic that was mentioned, unless Mearls actually was not including replacement items (i.e. the +1 sword replaced with the +2 sword is still considered one item). Granted, I get it that PCs should find few magic items at real low level, but finding 5 in the last dozen rooms or so???

1. To begin, you are assuming the party finds every one, which of course can happen (and can be forced to happen), but is unlikely to happen in the normal course of play. A party might not (are likely not to) find them all. They will bypass some rooms or some challenges, or perhaps not even notice them. But let's assume that the players of the starter adventure are all seasoned gamers, and we assume they do...

At the end of the adventure (level 5) every character has one, and maybe two permanent items. That seems about right.

2. You are also assuming that the adventure continues. From what we've been told, Tyranny of Dragons starts with new characters at level 1. While of course people can continue to play these characters, my sense is that the game is trying to provide a sense of closure. the final 12 rooms, as you call them, are i that way an experience of closure for the characters, not part of a larger path.

3. You are also assuming the designers are idiots giving 23 items per 20 levels

Per party, even if the party size changes. Same number regardless of party size (which is also dumb)

I don't know the quote you are referencing, but I'd be really surprised that this was a hard-and-fast benchmark. Much more likely, and here I am making assumptions, is that it's assuming a party of 4 or 5 (the default assumption in the starter set and in many of the things I have seen), and it's saying you end up at level 20 with 4 or 5 magic items. Ish.

In any case, I suspect the point is a rough guide, with party members getting one item every four or five levels. Which is, roughly, what players get from this adventure.

4. There's another assumption you make, and that's the trade-up mentality of "disposable" magic weapons that characterized previous editions. I see no indication that that is the design goal here, and I expect many players are going to stick with the same +1 weapon for many many levels of play. In that respect, the fact that one player gets (as his final reward) a nice breastplate does not seem to me aberrant. That will last the character until level 20.

So, (1) if the players find it, (2) at the capstone of the starter adventure designed to make them want to go off and make their own characters, players are given a magic item each (3) at a rate that is pretty much exactly what it should be,* (4) one of which in particular, might be something they treasure until level 20.

That actually sounds pretty good to me.

*(assuming a generalizing intent for the benchmark from Mearls; I'd need a quote and context to believe this was meant otherwise)

 

[camilaacolide]

7) As far as I can tell, using a Healing Potion in combat is almost always a sub-optimal choice. It appears to use the "Use an Object" action which means that the PC heals up for ~7 as an action and the enemy has a good chance of hitting him for 4 to 10 (NPC dependent) in return.

Yeah, I find it funny that to drink or administer a potion takes an action (Basic, page 49), but to drink all the ale in a flagon is a free action (Basic, page 70). It really sets the potion as a sub-optimal choice as you put it. Drinking the potion as a free action during your move would give it much more purpose.

 

[KarinsDad]

So there are three issues,

1. Perception
2. Healing potions and
3. Magic items.

I'll deal with the third.



1. To begin, you are assuming the party finds every one, which of course can happen (and can be forced to happen), but is unlikely to happen in the normal course of play. A party might not (are likely not to) find them all. They will bypass some rooms or some challenges, or perhaps not even notice them. But let's assume that the players of the starter adventure are all seasoned gamers, and we assume they do...

At the end of the adventure (level 5) every character has one, and maybe two permanent items. That seems about right.

Yes, but they get their magic item (5 of them) in the last dozen rooms. For a group of PCs that you yourself said would rarely be continued.

Isn't it special? I got something to use in the last few fights.

3 of the items are found in the second to the last fight and the last fight. 3 out of 7.

Color me unimpressed.

2. You are also assuming that the adventure continues. From what we've been told, Tyranny of Dragons starts with new characters at level 1. While of course people can continue to play these characters, my sense is that the game is trying to provide a sense of closure. the final 12 rooms, as you call them, are i that way an experience of closure for the characters, not part of a larger path.

See my quote above. I am not assuming they will continue, I am confused why stuff is handed out at the end because I assume that they will not typically continue.

The fun of gaining magic items is in the ability to use them. Not for them to be acquired with a half hour left in the entire set of gaming sessions. IMO. YMMV, but I find it odd.

3. You are also assuming the designers are idiots giving 23 items per 20 levels

I don't know the quote you are referencing, but I'd be really surprised that this was a hard-and-fast benchmark. Much more likely, and here I am making assumptions, is that it's assuming a party of 4 or 5 (the default assumption in the starter set and in many of the things I have seen), and it's saying you end up at level 20 with 4 or 5 magic items. Ish.

In any case, I suspect the point is a rough guide, with party members getting one item every four or five levels. Which is, roughly, what players get from this adventure.

It's not a hard and fast benchmark. It's the default. And yes, I think it's kind of dumb. 6 permanent items per PC (for 4 PCs) over 20 levels, only 3 of which can be attuned to the PC. Seems a bit odd. 1 ring, 1 weapon, 1 armor, 1 shield, 1 set of boots, and miscellaneous, but only after you adventure for 20 levels.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4wand/20140122

I do not think that it should be 4 items per level like 4E, but 1 item per level seems a bit light as a default.

Players LOVE finding magic items. Why be so stingy? If a group only plays about 80% of this module (before starting with the Dragon books), then they might find 2 items. Not impressive.

4. There's another assumption you make, and that's the trade-up mentality of "disposable" magic weapons that characterized previous editions. I see no indication that that is the design goal here, and I expect many players are going to stick with the same +1 weapon for many many levels of play. In that respect, the fact that one player gets (as his final reward) a nice breastplate does not seem to me aberrant. That will last the character until level 20.

So, (1) if the players find it, (2) at the capstone of the starter adventure designed to make them want to go off and make their own characters, players are given a magic item each (3) at a rate that is pretty much exactly what it should be,* (4) one of which in particular, might be something they treasure until level 20.

That actually sounds pretty good to me.

*(assuming a generalizing intent for the benchmark from Mearls; I'd need a quote and context to believe this was meant otherwise)

I am not making that assumption either. I was wondering if the rate was higher, but that the default guideline was discussing the magic items kept by level 20 as opposed to all of them found over the adventuring careers (which makes a lot more sense IMO).

As for the +1 breastplate, sure, give it to a PC eventually. But the starter set ignores the cost associated with that breastplate and just hands it out. I prefer games were the players strive for the real coveted objects. For example, a player saves up a ton of money to either buy a non-magical breastplate, or goes on a quest to find the +1 breastplate.

Handing out a +1 breastplate either increases a PC's AC by 2 (above a Chain shirt), or it increases the AC by 1 and removes the disadvantage for Stealth (above Scale mail).

Either way, for a game system stingy with magic items, a 2 AC boost for a stealthy PC is a really big dot deal and I was just surprised to see it. Not a deal breaker issue, just something odd. YMMV.