D&D 5E Thinking about 5E releases...

[Jester David]

I think it is also a bit premature to assume the issue has been 'fixed' just because they added some pages. Episode 7 is 10 pages long, and provides 10K XP. Bumping that to 13-14 pages probably isn't going to equate to 40K XP.
And Episode 7 isn't the only episode 'light' on XP.... and from what I hear, RoT is even worse than HotDQ.

Again, I kind of like the approach they have taken in HotDQ..... just don't call it a 1-8 when it isn't.

(I will admit, I have not looked into PotA, so maybe they did 'fix' it.... but I'm not holding my breathe)

They increased the page count by 30%. Over 50 pages. That's a big jump. And it doesn't use the milestone xp rules. And the book really is a dozen adventures you can use as mini-adventures.
welll.... I say 50 pages but I mean 64 pages. WotC added two full independent modules to the book. For how much extra? -$10.

Plus, I just know each and every one if you asking for more small adventures has subscribed to EN5ider.

 

[Parmandur]

Yep, pretty much.



My suspicion is that small modules just aren't profitable enough for most companies to bother with. Though there may well be a market for a compilation - instead of 8 32-page adventures, a single 256-page hardback containing those same adventures. And I continue to hope for the return of Dungeon (or similar) at some point.







I'm not sure pricing on dndclassics is a good indication of how the pricing 'should' be. On the one hand, WotC don't have to pay the costs associated with creating the adventure (that is the writing, art, layout, etc... obviously, there are still some costs), while on the other hand sales of the PDFs are probably extremely low, at least compared with the hardback books.



My suspicion is that a PDF of a new 32-page adventure (that wouldn't ever be seen in print) would cost considerably more than an eighth of "Princes..."

Oh, I agree; Goodman Games, however, is producing similar modules for $10 dales currently.

 

[Coredump]

False dichotomy or not, the Paizo Adventure Paths frequently suggest that the DM drop in a few extra wandering monsters or other encounters for exactly that purpose. And, yes, it's a bad practice.

I agree that is a bad practice. I say "false dichotomoy" because that is not the only choice.
The better solution is to either A) Include enough content so the PCs will level as they are intended, or B) not assume they level and let two chapters/episodes be the same level.

It really depends what XP are supposed to be for. If they're a reward for killing things, then that's a problem. If they're for overcoming challenges, well, you did. Congratulations.

We never even saw he Perytons... should we get full XP for them? One of the Veterans ran away, do we get full XP for him? We didn't bother with the troll and drakes... do we get full XP for them? We could have gotten away without dealing with the BBEG, do we still get full XP? We never even *saw* he Perytons... should we get full XP for them?

And even if you say *yes* to all of that.... using Milestone would almost *quadruple* the XP of the episode. (maybe up to 6X the amount if everyone shows up.)

Bottom line: I'm no fan of "Tyranny of Dragons" - I thought Hoard was the better of the two adventures and didn't think it was particularly good (see my reviews for more detail). But for all the flaws with the adventures, milestone XP was one of the things they did right. IMO, of course.

As a concept, Milestone is fine. It makes sure folks are on the same level, it lets the writers know what level to expect, it means PCs don't have to kill everything just to advance.... But this assumes that the amount of content is about what it should be. In these APs it is not even close. Instead WotC is using the Milestone concept as a crutch to allow them to publish a *fraction* of the content needed to level to 15... and still call it a "1-15" AP.

 

[Coredump]

According to WOTC surveys, most people have abandoned the individual encounter XP model and turned to session XP anyway. I know we did at some point during the playtest, and we love it and will never go back.

Glad you love it.

DnD is designed so that characters level up after a reasonable amount of adventuring. While adventuring they gain XP.... usually for killing things, but also for achieving certain goals or bypassing obstacles, etc.

The key here is "a reasonable amount of adventuring". I am saying that WotC has short circuited that concept in order to better market their APs. There are episodes where 'very little adventuring' is enough to level up.
There is nothing wrong with 'session XP', but do you want it to be "one level per session", or how about "one level every 2 hours"? At some point the PC just isn't doing enough to warrant going up a level. Leaving aside killing things, there just isn't enough content in Episode 7 to warrant going up a level. And it isn't the only Episode like that.

 

[Coredump]

They increased the page count by 30%. Over 50 pages. That's a big jump. And it doesn't use the milestone xp rules. And the book really is a dozen adventures you can use as mini-adventures.
welll.... I say 50 pages but I mean 64 pages. WotC added two full independent modules to the book. For how much extra? -$10.

Plus, I just know each and every one if you asking for more small adventures has subscribed to EN5ider.

I'm not saying they *haven't* fixed it, I am saying that just because they added pages doesn't really mean they have fixed it.

64 pages over 14 levels is about 4-5 extra pages per level. Episode 7 was 10 pages and 10K XP of content. Boosting it to 15 pages probably will not make it 40K XP in content. (Or even 25K XP in content)

I don't want to read it yet, so go ahead and pick one of the episodes and add up the XP.... is it anywhere close to the needed amount?

 

[Jester David]

I'm not saying they *haven't* fixed it, I am saying that just because they added pages doesn't really mean they have fixed it.

64 pages over 14 levels is about 4-5 extra pages per level. Episode 7 was 10 pages and 10K XP of content. Boosting it to 15 pages probably will not make it 40K XP in content. (Or even 25K XP in content)

I don't want to read it yet, so go ahead and pick one of the episodes and add up the XP.... is it anywhere close to the needed amount?

Yes. We get it HotDQ was bad for xp. But continuing to rail on that one adventure ignoring everything that has come since is just looking for an excuse to be upset. They made changes. They fixed their next adventure book and it looks like they followed suit for the one after. It's not like they can travel back in time and make Tyranny of Dragons larger. They effed up and made the next one (arguably) better, time to move on.

4 1/2 pages each level is a LOT. Again, it increased the size by 30%. You can cram a lot of adventure into 4 pages. That's, like, half a Giants module for each level. You can easily fit a two encounters each page for a whopping 8 extra encounters. Or expand the level's worth of encounters you already have with some room to breathe or exploration/roleplaying.

And even if the much maligned Chapter 7 has 0 xp in it, it'd still serve some purpose. It's a fully detained hunting lodge with maps. So if you need a hunting lodge or big manor, you have one handy. I'm sure more was planned for the hunting lodge and they just ran out of room.
It sounds like Tyranny of Dragons continually ran into space shortages during the writing. So many of its problems stemmed from the fact it's page count was set and non-negotiable as was its level range. Plus it was being written when the core rules were still heavily in flux.

 

[Coredump]

G Giants was also named in the post I was replying too, so let's drill down on that topic rather than drifting to others (that is what I was talking about when I mentioned moving target).

Speaking of 'moving targets'... now that I have 'done the work' that you requested to show there is no where near enough XP in Episode 7.... are you going to provide those "play reports" that indicate otherwise??

Compare the average episode (not cherry picked) to G1. I think you will find G1 does not have more content, by any rationale definition. And it would cost over $16 now, for those 10 pages.

Wait.... you are going to be concerned about 'cherry picking' when you want to use the very first TSR Module as your 'typical' example? Within 3 years it was combined into Against the Giants as a single module for all three.
But even looking at *just* G1..... it *does* have more content then most of the HotDQ episodes. A lot more.

As for the $16.... you are *way* off base. You are trying to equate a cost based on a product for a *very* niche game using 1970's production, page layout, and printing capabilties and compare that to an established game using the latest tech. To produce a 10 page dungeon crawl using today's capabilties and market would be profitable closer to $5.

Personally, I would happily take the current AP over four G1-level adventures for the same price. And I absolutely think price plays a crucial role in this discussion - it's what we're mostly talking about here, a shift from small adventures at X price, versus a big adventure at X4 price. G1 was 10 pages for $16. Prices of the Apocalypse is 255 pages at $50. That's $0.20/page versus $1.60 a page. That's relevant to this discussion, even if you don't want to talk about it. The point I was making is that the larger adventures are more cost effective for Wizards to produce.

That particular price comparison has no basis in current conditions.

But I am not even discussing the amount of content in the current APs. I kind of like the current APs. I just have two issues:

1) To say the current APs have the same content as 16 older modules is ridiculous, it just doesn't hold up.

2) The current APs have enough content to warrant going from first to 5th or 6th level..... but they stretch it out so they can call it a "1st through 8th" AP.

 

[Coredump]

Yes. We get it HotDQ was bad for xp. But continuing to rail on that one adventure ignoring everything that has come since is just looking for an excuse to be upset. They made changes. They fixed their next adventure book and it looks like they followed suit for the one after. It's not like they can travel back in time and make Tyranny of Dragons larger. They effed up and made the next one (arguably) better, time to move on.

Again, I am *not* saying they have not fixed it... .but 'more pages' is not a fix. It is necessary for a fix, but simple page count is not enough. I know HotDQ was bad for XP. I know that RoT was even worse for XP.
And maybe *maybe* PotA is better. But as I have shown over and over.... page count alone is not the issue. If you expanded HotDQ by 30%, it still would be very very bad for XP.

4 1/2 pages each level is a LOT. Again, it increased the size by 30%. You can cram a lot of adventure into 4 pages. That's, like, half a Giants module for each level. You can easily fit a two encounters each page for a whopping 8 extra encounters. Or expand the level's worth of encounters you already have with some room to breathe or exploration/roleplaying.

4 1/2 pages *can* be a lot, it *can* add 8 more encouners, it *can* be like half of a Giants module..... but is it?
If they put two encounters a page, then HotDQ and RoT would have been fine without needing an expansion.
The problem isn't page count, it is what they do with the page count.

And even if the much maligned Chapter 7 has 0 xp in it, it'd still serve some purpose. It's a fully detained hunting lodge with maps. So if you need a hunting lodge or big manor, you have one handy. I'm sure more was planned for the hunting lodge and they just ran out of room.
It sounds like Tyranny of Dragons continually ran into space shortages during the writing. So many of its problems stemmed from the fact it's page count was set and non-negotiable as was its level range. Plus it was being written when the core rules were still heavily in flux.

Maybe, and hopefully that is the case. Do you have PotA? Have you checked the XP levels?
If they had 30% more space for the Hunting Lodge....do you think they could have included 300% more XP of content?

And it isn't just Ep 7, thats just the one I added the XP for. I can do the same for almost any episode. And if you only have space for a hunting lodge map and a couple of encounters.... I'm okay with that.... just don't try and say that is enough content for gaining a level.


PS. You mention 2 encounters per page.... (from memory) Ep 7 has 20 pages, and about 5 encounters... so about 1/4 the rate you are hoping for.

 

[Jester David]

Maybe, and hopefully that is the case. Do you have PotA? Have you checked the XP levels?
If they had 30% more space for the Hunting Lodge....do you think they could have included 300% more XP of content?.

I own. I have reviewed. I have not counted xp since it requires counting monsters as the xp is not provided. But it doesn't use the milestone levelling and there ar a lot of encounters, so it looks much more full of xp.

Pick a couple dungeons at random. 1-8. I'll count later.

PS. You mention 2 encounters per page.... (from memory) Ep 7 has 20 pages, and about 5 encounters... so about 1/4 the rate you are hoping for.

You remember wrong. It has 10.

 

[Staffan]

As for the $16.... you are *way* off base. You are trying to equate a cost based on a product for a *very* niche game using 1970's production, page layout, and printing capabilties and compare that to an established game using the latest tech. To produce a 10 page dungeon crawl using today's capabilties and market would be profitable closer to $5.

I doubt it. Before switching to 64-pagers, Paizo were producing 32-page modules for $14. You'd think this would translate into 16-page books (10-page books essentially don't exist due to the way printing works) for $7, but it wouldn't. There are too many fixed costs involved, like cover art and such - plus, a 16-page book would have a smaller audience than a 32-page book, so there are fewer copies sold to spread R&D costs over. You'd be lucky go get, say, a 16-pager for $12 maybe.

What would be more likely to work, perhaps, if they wanted to produce something for the DM on the go would be to make a rather big book with several one-shot adventures in it - something like Weird Discoveries for Numenera. However, the level-based nature of D&D would make that less useful than it is for Numenera, because an adventure useful for 3rd level PCs is rarely useful for 7th level ones (unless the adventures have notes on scaling).