D&D 5E Thinking about 5E releases...

[delericho]

Do you guys think that WOTC's use of their AP hardbacks in the triple roles of multi-media tie-in, Adventure League material and traditional RPG product might be holding back their adventures from being better?

No. I think the need to put "Tyranny of Dragons" together while the core rules were in flux held that one back from being better. I think "Lost Mine of Phandelver" is excellent, and the reviews of "Princes of the Apocalypse" have likewise been very good.

Things might be different when "Rage of the Demons" comes out, but for the moment the signs from WotC on the adventures front actually look pretty healthy.

 

[TerraDave]

To be fair, when we only have 3 core books, and 2 adventure path books since August, I really can't blame the board for talking about the same stuff over and over given the extremely tiny amount of new information that we have gotten. It's either talk about that stuff (which inherently gives us a small pool of topics given the material) or basically talk about nothing at all since we have pretty much covered most everything we can 50x over.

Its just the dead-horse beating that getting to me, but I guess this is the internet.

And you make a good point. The only time that the release schedule has been this slow in the last 30+ years may have been when TSR went bankrupt, but even then I am not sure it was this slow. Fine. Beat away.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

But by selling only APs they aren't getting money from players who are more interested in splat or campain settings. It is like refusing to catter to two thirds of customers (ok their are some people who just buy everything, but you get what I mean). Splat and settings can also be tied-in to storylines. So, I'm not sure I get their strategy for the PnP RPG, unless it is really secondary. That the AP is just a legacy product that gives a little credibility to the storyline. Maybe they see the RPG as more of a liability than a source of revenue past the release of the core books.

I think it's a bit more complicated. If I understand WotC's current vision correctly, it's not just a matter of thinking that splatbooks won't make them the intended profit, it's also a matter of thinking that splatbooks poison the game and make it not viable in the long run. If this is really what they're thinking, I must say I agree with them.

The 2E model: after 5 years, players don't feel like D&D players anymore. They're Dark Sun players, Forgotten Realms players and Planescape players. They lose contact with the core identity of the game and vanilla D&D is not an interesting product anymore.

The 3E/4E model: after 5 years, new players don't even know what they have to buy if they want to start with the game. Old players had so much of Martial This and Arcane That that they start new campaigns by deciding which books are allowed and which are not. Different people don't even feel like they are playing the same game anymore.

The 5E model: give players a toolbox, but try to keep it small. Grow organically, so you can keep growing for a longer time. I'd even call it a 1E model, but their storyline model is very different from the way 1E approached adventure publishing. In fact, my only problem with WotC's model right now is that I miss some solid short adventures. Still, 3rd party is moving quickly to fill that niche.

So, things as I see them: it's ok to ask for products that are within their publishing model. I think, for example, that we really need to move somewhere else after "Rage of Demons". I'll soon start Elemental Evil, but I'm not sure I'll be able to convince my players to save the Sword Coast again after that, and I'm pretty certain that if we end up playing RoD they won't want to see the Forgotten Realms again for two or three years. At that point, WotC's focus in a specific setting would start to damage their own business plan, in my opinion.

Splatbooks, on the other hand, effectively damage the storyline model by pushing the rules farther than intended and generating a huge amount of disconnect that affects both organized and home play. No amount of focus placed in "designing an experience" - and no amount of adventure playtest - can cope with five years of "Complete Stuff". An Oriental Adventures or Psionics Handbook once in a while, just to keep things fresh, would be good, but I'm afraid anything beyond that is prone to mess with their plans of making an "evergreen D&D".

Obviously, this is just how I see things. WotC actual plans can be something entirely different, and we'll have to wait before we get to see them in practice.

 

[Vampir]

In fact, my only problem with WotC's model right now is that I miss some solid short adventures. Still, 3rd party is moving quickly to fill that niche.

Guess I'll make my first post.

I started playing around '79 and have gone through all the versions. We were hardcore AD&D fans and lost a lot of enthusiasm as the versions rolled on and the rules got more and more voluminous and complicated. 5E has pulled together the small group of players that started when we were in middle school.

Like Giltonio says, the only thing that I miss right now are the smaller adventures. It was so much fun to go to the game store and look through the shelf of modules and pick out a new one to play. Slave Pits of the Undercity, Descent into the Depths of the Earth, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, Ravenloft.

That said, while there seems to be a lot of grousing about Horde of the Dragon Queen, our group totally enjoyed it and it took us several months to get through it. We are now on our way through Rise of Tiamat.

I like WotC's new model. All we need are the three core books and maybe in a couple of years a second book of monsters (Fiend Folio). Continue to give us new adventures and don't make them all huge epic adventures either. We'll fill in between those with our own home-brewed stuff.

 

[Kramodlog]

The 2E model: after 5 years, players don't feel like D&D players anymore. They're Dark Sun players, Forgotten Realms players and Planescape players. They lose contact with the core identity of the game and vanilla D&D is not an interesting product anymore.

Yeah, from what we were told it wasn't how it happened. It wasn't a question of disconnect, but a question of cannibalization of fan base/customers.

The 3E/4E model: after 5 years, new players don't even know what they have to buy if they want to start with the game.

Sure they do. The core books. At least with minimal research or asking the guy behind the counter. Like with any edition.

Old players had so much of Martial This and Arcane That that they start new campaigns by deciding which books are allowed and which are not. Different people don't even feel like they are playing the same game anymore.

First world problems.

The 5E model: give players a toolbox, but try to keep it small. Grow organically, so you can keep growing for a longer time.

By grow organically do you mean other RPG products than the APs? Cause Nathan Stewart pretty much said "nuh-huh" to other types of books. Heck APs might go from two to one a year. Yeah, just making APs isn't growth. It is considering to RPG to be secondary or ancillary to the storyline.

I think, for example, that we really need to move somewhere else after "Rage of Demons". I'll soon start Elemental Evil, but I'm not sure I'll be able to convince my players to save the Sword Coast again after that, and I'm pretty certain that if we end up playing RoD they won't want to see the Forgotten Realms again for two or three years. At that point, WotC's focus in a specific setting would start to damage their own business plan, in my opinion.

Not gonna happen for this cycle. The FR are the default setting for a while. Nathan Stewart pretty much said so in his interview. Perkins said he was writting storylines for the next seven years, so maybe seven years is a cycle and maybe this is how long the FR will be "default".

Splatbooks, on the other hand, effectively damage the storyline model by pushing the rules farther than intended and generating a huge amount of disconnect that affects both organized and home play.

Splat doesn't affect story. Fluff and crunch are two separate things. Like you can be a power gamer and still roleplay. At home games just don't use them if you do not like them. For organized lay, just the splat of the current storyline can be used. That 25 page PDF WotC released? Yeah, not gonna be usable with Rage of Drizzt. So all is fine. No one is forcing you to buy splat if you do not want some. Some of us would like to have that option though. Cause APs are not our cup of tea. Some do not like splat or APs and just want source books. Ultimately it is a question of satisfying your fan/customer base as that is tied to making money. Unless you've moved away from RPG customers.

plans of making an "evergreen D&D".

So far 3.x is the longest edition in existence and lots of options come with it.

Obviously, this is just how I see things. WotC actual plans can be something entirely different, and we'll have to wait before we get to see them in practice.

I recommand reading their interviews. They explain some of their plans.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Yeah, from what we were told it wasn't how it happened. It wasn't a question of disconnect, but a question of cannibalization of fan base/customers.

Accordingly to Dancey, disconnect was indeed an issue. Planescape players saw themselves as Planescape players, not as D&D players. In fact, Dragonlance didn't even use the D&D rules anymore at that point.

Sure they do. The core books. At least with minimal research or asking the guy behind the counter. Like with any edition.

I don't think WotC believes that "guys behind the counter" have what is needed for the intended acquisition. Two weeks ago, I went to a really big hobby store in Hamburg and asked for Princes of the Apocalypse. The guy who worked there told me they didn't have it. I looked around a little bit and found the adventure somewhere else, far from the other 5E books. I understand why WotC wants customers to be able to access the game on their own. We're now far from the days where the market could grow by simply letting an experienced player introducing new ones to the game.

First world problems.

Not at all. We have them in Brazil too!

By grow organically do you mean other RPG products than the APs? Cause Nathan Stewart pretty much said "nuh-huh" to other types of books. Heck APs might go from two to one a year. Yeah, just making APs isn't growth. It is considering to RPG to be secondary or ancillary to the storyline.

We got some nice stuff in the Unearthed Arcana column as well. Not as much as 3E/4E players had at this point in time, but much of that stuff was there just to fill the page count anyway. And we got it for free. Don't get me wrong, I want the Psionics Handbook as much as everybody else, but I don't want poorly tested material being published just to fill a released schedule. It seems Mike Mearls believes that trying to keep the release schedule big instead of trying to release top quality material damaged previous editions. I agree with that.

Not gonna happen for this cycle. The FR are the default setting for a while. Nathan Stewart pretty much said so in his interview. Perkins said he was writting storylines for the next seven years, so maybe seven years is a cycle and maybe this is how long the FR will be "default".

Not even Magic: The Gathering is designed so many years in advance. I'm pretty sure if Realms fatigue turns out to be an issue, as I believe it will be, WotC will be in good position to deal with it. If for no other reason, because they have a huge back catalog of great campaign settings they can start to use at any time. Settings are a resource, and I think WotC intends to use it carefully.

Splat doesn't affect story. Fluff and crunch are two separate things. Like you can be a power gamer and still roleplay. At home games just don't use them if you do not like them. For organized lay, just the splat of the current storyline can be used. That 25 page PDF WotC released? Yeah, not gonna be usable with Rage of Drizzt. So all is fine. No one is forcing you to buy splat if you do not want some. Some of us would like to have that option though. Cause APs are not our cup of tea. Some do not like splat or APs and just want source books. Ultimately it is a question of satisfying your fan/customer base as that is tied to making money. Unless you've moved away from RPG customers.

You know, I've spent the last 20 years hearing "don't use if you don't like" and "no one is forcing you to buy". It didn't help at all. I'll give you two examples that show how the social contract of most RPG groups is in fact much more complex (I'll ignore the issue above - that sourcebooks cause not only power creep, but also complexity creep - because you disagree and I'll respect that):

First think about organized play: John Gamer just bought Complete Dunes, the supplement for the Sandstorm storyline. John Gamer plays his sun-wizard character from the sandfolk race for six months, but then the adventure is over and he wants to try a dune-elf dust-fighter as his next character. As the DM, I'll be sorry to tell John Gamer that the new campaign will follow the brand new Hellish Devastation storyline, and Complete Dunes is not allowed. If he wants to try something outside the Player's Handbook I'll advice him to buy Hellish Power, the sourcebook for the new storyline. John Gamer proceeds to tell his friends what a huge moneygrab this organized play thing turned out to be.

Now let's think about home play: John Gamer walks to the hobby store and buys the brand new Hellish Power. We're playing a homemade adventure and he couldn't care less what's the storyline this sourcebook relates to. I'm supposed to run a core books-only game, because I'm afraid of power creep, but John isn't my son, and he's not asking for permission to buy a new book. When John arrives for our weekly game with his newly created character full of stuff from this new sourcebook, I'm inclined to disallow it, but I'm John's friend (that's why we play together in the first place!), and I don't know if I'd feel ok telling him that the book he just spent $50 on will not be used in our campaign.

As you can see, no amount of "buy it if you want it" can change the fact that splat treadmill can have a harmful impact in perfect good rules systems in the long run.

So far 3.x is the longest edition in existence and lots of options come with it.

If you consider that the chain from 3.0 to Pathfinder is one edition, then you should also consider 1E and 2E as a single edition, running strong from 1977 to 1999, for impressible 22 years! In fact, having used 1E material in 2E games and 3.5 material in Pathfinder games, I'd say that the former is a much easier conversion.

I recommand reading their interviews. They explain some of their plans.

I did. I'm just explaining what I interpret from them. You disagreeing is just part of discussing.

 

[halfling rogue]

I'd love to see some short adventures as well, but I'm not sure we'll be seeing anything like that for a while.

One thing that I think might be cool (and maybe something like this is coming down the pike?) is if WotC held a few fan-made short adventure competitions. Set up a structure. No more than X pdf pages, type of thing. Make it wide open and have the community vote for a winner. All they would have to do is put their stamp of approval on the winner or say, the top 3, with some cool prizes or something, and the community all of a sudden has a bunch of free short 5e adventures, with extremely little effort on WotC's part. You get yerself some breathing room from all of us idiots clamoring for modules and you don't lose focus on your big projects. Plus you are engaging your fanbase and interacting with them in a fun way.

 

[Kramodlog]

Accordingly to Dancey, disconnect was indeed an issue. Planescape players saw themselves as Planescape players, not as D&D players. In fact, Dragonlance didn't even use the D&D rules anymore at that point.

And their products competed with each other for the same customer base. Paizo's approach is interesting. One world made of regions with different "feels". Centering everything on the Sword Coast seems to be an odd choice. You said yourself that going back there with Rage of Drizzt might not be sexy after EE.

I don't think WotC believes that "guys behind the counter" have what is needed for the intended acquisition. Two weeks ago, I went to a really big hobby store in Hamburg and asked for Princes of the Apocalypse. The guy who worked there told me they didn't have it. I looked around a little bit and found the adventure somewhere else, far from the other 5E books. I understand why WotC wants customers to be able to access the game on their own. We're now far from the days where the market could grow by simply letting an experienced player introducing new ones to the game.

Is Amazon better? They are selling PHB reprints of the 1st edition. If too many books in one edition is confusing, too many editions might be too. This points to me that confusion among noobs who want to enter the game isn't a very strong preoccupation at WotC. In other words, it isn't why we aren't seeing more books past the APs.

Not at all. We have them in Brazil too!

Damn you, BRIC! *shake fist in the air*

We got some nice stuff in the Unearthed Arcana column as well. Not as much as 3E/4E players had at this point in time, but much of that stuff was there just to fill the page count anyway. And we got it for free. Don't get me wrong, I want the Psionics Handbook as much as everybody else, but I don't want poorly tested material being published just to fill a released schedule. It seems Mike Mearls believes that trying to keep the release schedule big instead of trying to release top quality material damaged previous editions. I agree with that.

First, UA is not top quality material. It says so in the intro of each article. Second, I'm tired of strawman. No one is advocating the release of 3 books each months and books of poor quality at that. Find a new rebuttle.

Not even Magic: The Gathering is designed so many years in advance. I'm pretty sure if Realms fatigue turns out to be an issue, as I believe it will be, WotC will be in good position to deal with it. If for no other reason, because they have a huge back catalog of great campaign settings they can start to use at any time. Settings are a resource, and I think WotC intends to use it carefully.

WotC doesn't necessarely have a great record when it comes to changing business plans when one isn't working the way they taught it was going to. Essentials wasn't a great response to 4e and 4e wasn't a great response to the VP who wanted MOAR(!).

Unless the RPG's revenues aren't really that important pass the launch. The video game is going to be. SCL and Neverwinter will get up dates for a long time. Those two are set in the FR. No reason for WotC to drop those in favor of setting who do not have video games.

You know, I've spent the last 20 years hearing "don't use if you don't like" and "no one is forcing you to buy". It didn't help at all. I'll give you two examples that show how the social contract of most RPG groups is in fact much more complex (I'll ignore the issue above - that sourcebooks cause not only power creep, but also complexity creep - because you disagree and I'll respect that):

First think about organized play: John Gamer just bought Complete Dunes, the supplement for the Sandstorm storyline. John Gamer plays his sun-wizard character from the sandfolk race for six months, but then the adventure is over and he wants to try a dune-elf dust-fighter as his next character. As the DM, I'll be sorry to tell John Gamer that the new campaign will follow the brand new Hellish Devastation storyline, and Complete Dunes is not allowed. If he wants to try something outside the Player's Handbook I'll advice him to buy Hellish Power, the sourcebook for the new storyline. John Gamer proceeds to tell his friends what a huge moneygrab this organized play thing turned out to be.

Heh. So what? Organized play isn't optimal to do what you want to do and you have the risk of jerky players/DMs. If you hate it so much do not play D&D in OP. If you like D&D more, well endure it. Not everyone can be satisfied. And I realize the irony of me saying this.

Now let's think about home play: John Gamer walks to the hobby store and buys the brand new Hellish Power. We're playing a homemade adventure and he couldn't care less what's the storyline this sourcebook relates to. I'm supposed to run a core books-only game, because I'm afraid of power creep, but John isn't my son, and he's not asking for permission to buy a new book. When John arrives for our weekly game with his newly created character full of stuff from this new sourcebook, I'm inclined to disallow it, but I'm John's friend (that's why we play together in the first place!), and I don't know if I'd feel ok telling him that the book he just spent $50 on will not be used in our campaign.

With a minimal release schedule, say a splatbook out every 6 months and announced almost 6 months in advanced, don't you think you would have had the opportunity to talk with your friend about the splatbook before he bought it?

But even if he didn't and you do not want to disappoint him, so what? Some feat is not well balanced with some other core feat? Tell him. He'll see and so will your other friends at the table.

As you can see, no amount of "buy it if you want it" can change the fact that splat treadmill can have a harmful impact in perfect good rules systems in the long run.

Yeah, two splatbooks a year is not a treadmill. It is hardly a walk around the block.

If you consider that the chain from 3.0 to Pathfinder is one edition, then you should also consider 1E and 2E as a single edition, running strong from 1977 to 1999, for impressible 22 years!

Touché. I do indeed consider the two to be close to a single edition.

In fact, having used 1E material in 2E games and 3.5 material in Pathfinder games, I'd say that the former is a much easier conversion.

It depends how much balance is an issue. Home game with friends have great tolerance for imperfection.

I did. I'm just explaining what I interpret from them. You disagreeing is just part of discussing.

Yeah well, some stuff leaves very little room for interpretation. Like how the FR are the default setting for a while or how one or two APs a year is what we'll see or how the desire for a triple A video game seems to be very very very important for them and the RPG is a source of content first and foremost.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Yeah, two splatbooks a year is not a treadmill. It is hardly a walk around the block.

Still rather bloaty, you seem to not want what is best for the game, but what will fill your appetite for more new-shiny.

 

[HobbitFan]

From the responses so far, it looks like my points didn't really resonate with very many people.
Just some odd thoughts anyway and I was interested to see if anyone else had thought similarly.

Thanks everyone that did respond. It's always interesting reading what others think.