Thinking about a swordsage

carborundum

Adventurer
I've been invited to a weekend game next week, and since I just bought Bo9S I've been thinking about a swordsage. I just painted a nice chain-weilding mini too (and never played a spiked chain fighter) so that's an option for me at this stage too.
The characters are all 10th level.

I can't decide to go for spiked chain with trip and combat reflexes, a two-weapon fighter, or a sneaky high-mobility chap with maybe a level or two of scout or rogue.

I'd appreciate some tips in terms of the 'feel' of different types of swordsage and the pros and cons of each. With only a week til the game I won't have time to roll up three or four different ones. What should I look out for in terms of feats and skills? I believe Adaptive Style is a must :)

I've already read every swordsage thread I can find here but just got confused in the end. Thanks in advance for helping me find my way through the zillions of combinations, guys!
 

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If you want to go spiked chain, i'd actually suggest going crusader instead, as you can do some crazy stuff with thicket of blades stance, especially if you can play something that could use a large spiked chain (ex. goliath). People will find it near impossible to make it past you, and with certain crusader maneuvers you'll even be healing up while you smack them. Uber tank.

If you want to go dual wield, you need to get some way to add damage to each strike to make multiple strikes worth it. Assassin's stance for sneak attack damage is a good way, so you may want to multiclass with rogue to add a bit more to the SA, and maybe even cover the rogue's skills while your at it since swordsage's have such high skill points. (add able learner feat) Then just grab maneuvers that let you go invisible, gain flank, or make the enemy flat footed. Imagine an assassin type getting up to his target and just laying into him. If you don't down your target, get ready for a counter attack on your low AC though.

Otherwise you can go single weapon, hopping to one enemy and striking them once really hard, staying maneuverable. If you were going to use a spiked chain with swordsage, this is the category you'd most likely fit into. Unfortunately you're a bit low for the crazy good maneuvers like greater insightful strike or swooping dragon, but the character should still be playable. Since you'll mostly be using just a standard action for your maneuvers, make sure to use up your move. Tumble away to safety, pop a potion, something so you're not wasting your turn.

If you want more help than that you're just going to have to flesh him out some more, as "make me a swordsage" is just way to broad a question, and the feats/maneuvers you'll want to look at will be very different depending on what you decide to do.
 

Thanks! After much soul searching, the "single weapon, hopping around and backing off" fits my mental image the best.

I do like the spiked chain too, so let's say I go for that too. I suppose I could start with Crusader 3 for the Thicket of Blades Stance, but that seems a little like overkill. It's the first time anyone's using the book - I don't want to go too overboard!

Skills: Max Tumble seems pretty obvious, Concentration and Jump too.

Maneuvers: This is tricky. Is it better to focus on a few disciplines? Shadow Hand and Desert Wind seem to have the flashiest and funkiest stuff, but then there's stuff like the Charging Minotaur which seems very useful for closing on enemies. The other Stone Dragon stuff doesn't quite fit in my vision of mobility though. At the higher levels, Diamond Mind has some awesome maneuvers (Bounding Assault and the Nightmare Blades for example) - though then you're stuck with the prerequisites taking up a lot of slots. If I go that way I'd probably be better focusing on that discipline I guess.

And so it goes - before I know it I've too many ideas again.

Would you mind helping me out with a pure swordsage built mostly around Desert Sun and Shadow Hand, using a spiked chain. Probably human - for the extra feat.

Stats I rolled were pretty sweet: 18, 18, 15,14,13,9!!!
I was thinking Wis and Dex 18, Con 15, Str 14, Int 13, Cha 9.
 

Well, you could go human swordsage 7/crusader 3, or human swordsage 10......

With the multiclass one, you'd have 5 stances (2 swordsage 1st-level, 1 swordsage 3rd-level, 1 crusader 1st-level, and 1 crusader 3rd-level) and some nice abilities. Could learn Stance of Clarity, Flame's Blessing, Assassin's Stance, Martial Spirit, and Thicket of Blades. Feat-wise, EWP: Spiked Chain as the human bonus feat, Weapon Focus in Shadow Hand weapons (which include the SC) from the swordsage's Discipline Focus feature, Adaptive Style as the 1st-level feat, Combat Expertise at 3rd, Improved Trip at 6th, and either Combat Reflexes or Two-Weapon Fighting at 9th (the other can be chosen later at 12th). Put the 4th and 8th level ability increases into Wisdom or something.

Initiator level would be 8 swordsage and 6 crusader (need the crusader levels to come after the swordsage ones; though the 7th level of swordsage could be taken last). Maneuvers could be Crusader's Strike, Charging Minotaur, Stone Bones, Mountain Hammer, Foehammer, and Revitalizing Strike from crusader levels, and Burning Blade, Distracting Ember, Shadow Blade Technique, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Mighty Throw, Emerald Razor, Cloak of Deception, Flashing Sun, Death Mark, Insightful Strike, Zephyr Dance, and Bounding Assault from swordsage levels.


You'll be able to stay reasonably mobile, while using occasional combos like Flashing Sun + Burning Blade + Assassin's Stance, or Flashing Sun + Distracting Ember + Assassin's Stance, or Flashing Sun + Cloak of Deception + Assassin's Stance (if you have no allies flanking at the time, you can get your sneak attacks in through CoD's greater invisibility or through Distracting Ember's flanking fire elemental) to make several sneak attacks in one full-round action (using your chain as a double weapon for that round rather than a two-handed reach weapon; with your BAB of +8/+3, you'd be making 4 attacks with Flashing Sun and Two-Weapon Fighting, at +4/+4/-1 with the primary hand and +4 with the off-hand).

The rest of the time you can rely on moving around and pushing enemies around, using Bounding Assault, Charging Minotaur, and Mighty Throw (which should be useable with the spiked chain since it's a trip attack, just with the added effect of throwing the victim). Later on you can learn better throws, swapping out Mighty Throw for a damaging one like Comet Throw or Soaring Throw (probably around 10th level swordsage). You'll have a few counters and boosts at your disposal, like Counter Charge and Zephyr Dance. When you get the chance, swap out Burning Blade for its higher cousin Searing Blade (probably at 8th level swordsage).

And of course, you should soon learn Ruby Nightmare Blade, Searing Charge, Obscuring Shadow Veil, Disrupting Blow, Bloodletting Strike, Shadow Stride, or Elder Mountain Hammer. I suppose that of those, DB, and SS would be the most useful ones for your theme (DB to knock foes senseless for a round so you and others can move around unopposed, and SS to escape an opponent's melee reach after you attack with a standard action (since Shadow Stride is a move action).

So you might learn DB and SS at swordsage levels 8 and 9. At 10th and 11th you may want to learn Desert Tempest and Greater Insightful Strike (or Scorpion Parry, if you're worried that GIS might be too strong and give the group a bad impression; it probably won't be, since you don't have any Concentration-boosting magical or psionic items).


Your other strikes will help with accuracy and dealing more damage, or healing a few of your wounds (Crusader's/Revitalizing Strike). Steely Resolve 5/Furious Counterstrike will often be active and providing you with +1 on attack and damage rolls, and the crusader's Zealous Surge will sometimes be useful (your saving throws will be fairly high anyway, and when you later gain 8th level in swordsage you'll also get +2 on saves from Discipline Focus, as long as you're in stances from a particular discipline). Insightful Strikes from Discipline Focus would probably be best allocated to Diamond Mind, since a slight majority of your strikes will be from that discipline (later it can be applied to Desert Wind or Shadow Hand as well).

You'll probably focus on using swordsage maneuvers in battle, but initiating Crusader's Strike and Revitalizing Strike whenever they come up as granted maneuvers (if you're injured at the time). And when foes with DR pop up, or you can't spare a round to use Adaptive Style, you can rely on the crusader's Foehammer, Mountain Hammer, Stone Bones, and Charging Minotaur. Most likely your 5 readied crusader maneuvers will be all but Stone Bones, since you'll be reasonably tough anyway and will want to use the others more often (whenever you actually face a foe with tough DR, you'll want to have both Foehammer and Mountain Hammer ready).


Typically you'll be in the Thicket of Blades or Martial Spirit stance, depending on whether or not you expect enemies to try escaping from you (if not, then just use Martial Spirit so you heal 2 HP each time you hit someone). Assassin's Stance is for use when you expect to rely on full-attack actions (or on Flashing Sun, which grants a full-attack), and maybe for use between encounters (so if you win initiative in a fight, you might be able to move in and hit with a sneak attack before the opponent is no longer flat-footed). Flame's Blessing is for when you're facing enemies who favor fire-damage attacks, and Stance of Clarity is for occasional situations where you're facing a single enemy (though others may be attacking your allies) and you aren't expecting to run interference for the rest of the party through Thicket of Blades.


If you go for straight swordsage 10, you'll have some more maneuvers at your disposal; just pick the extras from among the others already suggested. You'll be at least moderately less tough, and won't have Thicket of Blades, but you'll probably be a bit more mobile. The Pearl of Black Doubt stance or Hearing the Air stance may be best for your 4th swordsage stance in that case.

Either way, a chain shirt or mithral shirt of +1 or higher enhancement would be good armor for you, and the spiked chain should probably be +1 with an ability like Shocking or Frost (you'll already be capable of fire damage, so it would be handy to have access to another energy type; though Shadow Blade Technique can deal 1d6 cold damage sometimes).
 

Another thought is Fighter 2/Swordsage 8. You'd only be down one initiator level, but be up 2 feats. You can grab the feats that Arkhandus listed, plus get shadow blade to add dex to weapon damage, and the gloom razor tactical feat. Since you're staying mobile, the gloom razor feat will let you keep using moving shadows. So you can stay in assassin's stance for that + 2d6 against opponents you stay on. Your good init (dex plus swordsage bonus to init) should let you strike enemies while they're initially flat footed in combat too. It would be useful when you fight big beefy guys. Otherwise staying in child of shadow stance would be good too, since if you stay moving you'll always have concealment. This is assuming you really want to stick with the mobile combatant thing.

After taking a look, the desert sun maneuvers are sort of disappointing compared to things from diamond mind. If you want to go desert sun for flavor that's fine, just letting you know.

Also since your new to martial characters, some things to keep in mind. Read page 39 and understand how multiclassing and initiator levels work. It's put in a very odd place, and I know some new people have had trouble with it. Not saying you will, just making sure. Also, keep in mind while you're selecting maneuvers that you only get one swift/immediate action per round. Switching stances takes up your swift action, boosts take up swift actions, counters take up immediate actions. The biggest limitation in combat i've found is only being able to use one per round. If you pop cloak of deception, you can no longer switch stances or use moment of perfect mind, for example.
 

Swordsages are awesome. Don't multi-class.

A spiked chain would be cool, but don't sweat it too hard -- you would need a high Int and Str to make good use of one, as well as a fair number of feats. Hmm, looks like you have the requisite Str and Int. One suggestion: put the 14 in Int and the 13 in Str starting out, because you can raise your Str at 4th level, but raising your Int at 4th level instead costs you 6 skill points.

Str: 14 (13 +1 level)
Dex: 18
Con: 16 (15 +1 level)
Int: 14
Wis: 18
Cha: 9

Human Swordsage 10
1: Shadow Blade, Power Attack -- Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand) -- Island of Blades (SH/Stance)
-- Burning Blade (DW/Boost), Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM/Strike), Shadow Blade Technique (SH/Strike), Wind Stride (DW/Boost), Charging Minotaur (SD/Strike), Stone Bones (SD/Strike)
2: Blood in the Water (TC/Stance) -- Sudden Leap (TC/Boost)
3: Weapon Finesse -- Cloak of Deception (SH/Boost)
4: Wis to Damage (Diamond Mind) -- Emerald Razor (DM/Strike), Charging Minotaur -> Shadow Jaunt (SH)
5: Assassin's Stance (SH/Stance) -- Bonecrusher (SD/Strike)
6: Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain) -- Shadow Garrote (SH/Strike), Stone Bones -> Death Mark (DW/Strike)
7: Ruby Nightmare Blade (DM/Strike)
8: +2 to Saves (Shadow Hand) -- Fountain of Blood (TC/Boost), Burning Blade -> Searing Blade (DW/Boost)
9: Adaptive Style -- Step of the Dancing Moth (SH/Stance) -- Dancing Mongoose (TC/Boost)
10: Elder Mountain Hammer (SD/Strike), Shadow Jaunt -> Shadow Stride (SH)

(Even with two levels of Fighter, you can't get the three feats you'd need to be a good tripper -- Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. So don't bother tripping.)

Cheers, -- N
 

I'm not a big fan of power attack with swordsage, as you're working with a medium BAB. Your to hit will already be somewhat gimped, no need to get it even lower. Switching out power attack, and grabbing two levels of fighter will grab you the three feats you'd need for improved trip and combat reflexes.

Also, swordsages are awesome, but they lose very little from multiclassing. 2 levels of fighter will bring you down only one initiator level, but better HD, 2 feats, one higher BAB at character level 10, and a quick little pump to fort save, your weak save.

Pure swordsage is definately fine though, people are just throwing out options.
 

UnsocialEntity said:
I'm not a big fan of power attack with swordsage, as you're working with a medium BAB. Your to hit will already be somewhat gimped, no need to get it even lower.
Remember, though, you're usually attacking ONCE (and thus at full BAB) because you're initiating a Strike -- and with Emerald Razor, it's a touch attack. Power Attack is necessary if you want to be effective.

Spiked Chain is a two-handed weapon. It wants you to take Power Attack.

Cheers, -- N
 

Wow - nice to wake up to so much advice, so many tips!

I see what you mean about the chain being feat intensive (and I don't think it can be used as a double weapon without that Master of Chains PrC). It's hard to imagine he made it to 6 before taking EWF:Spiked Chain, though with strikes it's certainly doable. And getting Adaptive Style at 9 would have been like Christmas and all his birthdays at once, I reckon! He's 10 now though, and looking fine! :)

With an initiative bonus of +7 it's a shame he can't take Combat Reflexes! On the other hand, I don't expect a horde of mooks very often. Maybe if the DM allows taking a flaw I could grab it.

With a 2-H reach weapon he could keep power attack and also take Combat Reflexes. Alas, reach weapons seem to be in short supply - I think the spiked chain is the only one. If I go for two weapons instead, I imagine the whole thing would have to change - with more emphasis on Tiger Claw maneuvers, for example. (Bo9S is great bedtime reading).

Do you guys maybe have another build lying around, with two weapons, heavy on the Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw? Seeing the builds is really helping me grasp the way it all fits together - there's a lot of synergy in the maneuvers and feat choices.

(Sorry, I said synergy - and outside a meeting too!)
 

Most of the nice feats for Spiked Chains are also nice for Daggers.

Here's a breakdown of the vitals:

1: TWF, Adaptive Style -- Blood in the Water(TC/Stance) -- Burning Blade (DW/Boost)
2: Island of Blades (SH/Stance)
3: Shadow Blade -- Flashing Sun (DW/Strike)
5: Assassin's Stance (SH/Stance)
6: Weapon Finesse
7: Searing Blade (DW/Boost)
9: Improved TWF -- Dancing Mongoose (TC/Boost)

Setting Sun's Giant Killing Style (stance, level 3) might be good if you face a lot of foes larger than you. Basically, you aren't going to be using many strikes (since most strikes aren't compatible with TWF -- with some notable exceptions). Instead, take as many Boosts which give you extra damage as you can. Desert Wind is good for this.

The only compatible (and good) Strikes are Flashing Sun, Pouncing Charge, and of course Time Stands Still. :)

Cheers, -- N
 

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