Third Edition Culture- Is is sustainable?

[Belen]

So search high and low, pick a system you like, and go with it. Just don't expect the system to make up for your own flaws as a GM or player.

I agreed with everything you said up until this point. Even a good player or GM can run afoul of flaws within a system.

I get that you're a huge fan of 3e. It's a good game, so I see why you like it. But just because someone disagrees and sees issues with the system does not mean that they have "flaws" as either a GM or player.

I happen to think that there is room for huge improvement in 3e that would make the game better for everyone.

 

[WayneLigon]

... I do have some problems with 3e, (detailed below) yet I have no trouble with d20. In fact, I fully intend to stay with d20. Anyone else feel the same?

I just don't find it all that complex, particularly if you have a half-page cheat sheet with reminders of some things you don't do all that often (like sundering, or trip attacks).

 

[diaglo]

i was never on the d02 bandwagon.

i've been playtesting it for 4+ years. but...

my hat of d02 knows no limits.

OD&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.


i'm running an OD&D campaign. goto the Gamers seeking Gamers forum if you are in the Atlanta area and interested in real D&D.*

* of course, if you want to play real real D&D meet me in the steam tunnels beneath MSU and i'll teach you how to gain ultimate power.

 

[JoeGKushner]

My group and I used to play a lot of games. Everything ranging from Rifts and Call of Cthulhu, to Elric and Champions.

Now we pretty much stick with D&D. There is a nearly infinit number of resources we can draw on and have a pretty good time.

When out last SL campaign came to an end, we started messing around with other systems again while the next GM gets his game ready. Are we enjoying games like A/State? Sure. Will it replaced D&D? Nope.

 

[diaglo]

In the real world (or as mearls calls it, "meatspace), IME all these arguments about complexity and things the moan about don't crop up. My group -- and I imagine, most groups -- are just a bunch of people with some character concepts who get together a few times a month to play a game. Most people don't have the time or energy to express the sort of disgruntlement you allude to, nor advocate the system.

i wear my hat of d02 on my sleeve. everyone i know knows that.

 

[fredramsey]

Read it again. I never said that someone who didn't like a system had "flaws". What I was saying is that switching systems won't correct things like the GM not willing to put in the time to learn the rules, or players who are rules lawyers or l00t freaks. A game doth not a system make. It takes a cooperation between the GM, the Players, and the Rules.

I agreed with everything you said up until this point. Even a good player or GM can run afoul of flaws within a system.

I get that you're a huge fan of 3e. It's a good game, so I see why you like it. But just because someone disagrees and sees issues with the system does not mean that they have "flaws" as either a GM or player.

I happen to think that there is room for huge improvement in 3e that would make the game better for everyone.

 

[Grayhawk]

I just think it lacks the soul and character that drew me to it in days gone by. Feel free to tell me I am wrong.

You are not wrong. If that's how you feel, that's how you feel. Even if a majority (on these boards) feels differently, it doesn't make you wrong. (It doesn't make them wrong either.)

For what it's worth, I feel the same as you do.

 

[Akrasia]

The Pros and Cons of 3E (IMO)

Well since I have been pretty vocal about my gripes concerning 3.x D&D over the past few weeks (probably because I am in the final months of DM'ing the current phase of my 3E campaign, and am starting to find statting up NPCs and monsters about as much fun as prying off my toe nails with a hot butter knife), I may as well chime in here.


Like you Belenumeria, I am amazed at the gap between "theory" and "practice" in d20. When I first read through the 3E books 4 years ago, I thought the "unified mechanic" solved so many problems. Two campaigns (as DM) later, it has proven to be the slowest FRPG I have ever played -- and has certainly involved more rules consultation than any other. (That problem, of course, gradually diminished over time, although it has always been a bit of a race between greater familiarity with the rules, and greater options available to PCs and NPCs at higher levels).

There are a lot of things that I do like about 3E, and I will be happy to play in another DM's campaign in the future. But I just don't have the time or inclination to DM 3E D&D ever again. Other systems are a lot more fun for me.

3E D&D accomplished two things.
It gave the game: (1.) a more consistent rules system (the 'unified mechanic' of d20, etc.).
But, in order to play the game, it required: (2.) much more game data (just compare an average statblock for 3E with a statblock for any other edition of the game).

I applaud 3E for accomplishing (1.).
I loathe it for accomplishing (2.).

(1.) Encourages creativity and DM innovation.
(2.) Discourages creativity and DM innovation (as any change affects many other aspects of the game, and has all kinds of "unintended consequences"). And dealing with (2.) is a complete time suck. Maybe if I were still in high-school, or an undergraduate, (2.) would not be a problem. But it is for me now, in my 30s.

Given my limited time and natural inclinations, (2.) has proven to be a major pain. Others with far more free time than myself, and/or a more "gearheady mindset", obviously disagree.

But after I finish DM'ing the current story-arc of my 3E campaign, I have had it. I will never DM 3.x D&D again.

I still love D&D! Just I just need a more 'rules lite' version. (This is why I'm giving C&C a shot next time.)

 

[Mystery Man]

Errr... that's what I was trying to say too. Sorry, I must not have been very clear.

Even when we agree we disagree. Reread and now I understand.


It's all hypothetical of course, nothing here is real......

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I just think it lacks the soul and character that drew me to it in days gone by. Feel free to tell me I am wrong.

How can anybody tell you you're wrong when you're stating a preference? (Note that I didn't say "opinion." Contrary to the opinions of some people, opinions can be wrong.)

For my part, though, I feel exactly the opposite. I rejoined the ranks of D&D players, following an eight-year absence, after reading the 3.0 PHB ... precisely because it reminded me of how I used to feel about D&D, before Second Edition came along and completed screwed the game up. Note that I'm not talking about rules -- though I also like the d20 system -- I'm talking about "soul and character."


Jeff