Third Party Character Creation iOS App Removed

The d20 Fight Club for D&D 5th Edition iOS app has been removed from the Apple App Store by its creator at the request of WotC. The creator reports that he received a Cease & Desist demand (although it's worth noting that some supposed recent C&Ds appear to have turned out to be amicable requests). This follows on from the removal of the D&D Tools website and the more recent online character generator.

The creator reports that "I received a cease and desist order from Wizards of the Coast. All D&D apps will be removed from the App Store as they weren't compliant with WotC's copyrights and trademarks. Hopefully they'll be back in some form someday. Til then, thanks for all the support."

Nobody has actually shared one of these C&Ds yet, and others have indicated that what they actually received was simply a friendly email asking that they respect WotC's trademarks, so it's not entirely clear what is happening. Hopefully somebody will share one soon!

It does look like this particular app contained text and stat blocks copied directly from the D&D books. Below is the DM version of the app (the companion to the character creation app).

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[wedgeski]

I created this digital tool in just a few days.

Y'know, if you become a Community Supporter, you could probably put that link in your sig, and then you wouldn't have to spam it in every post you make on the subject.

 

[delericho]

I have an attorney that deals with my IP's. Do you? Because dealing with Trademarks, Intellectual Properties, Copyrights are not all clear cut cases. That is why I have an IP attorney. You should really look at the IP lawsuits between Samsung and Apple and how long and mirky these court cases are.

I notice you didn't actually answer my question.

Those other cases have only tangential relevance to this one. Yes, IP law can indeed get murky. Yes, there are complexities, and yes money can have a disproportionate effect.

But so what? In this case someone put out a software tool that, it appears, infringed on WotC's IP. So WotC took action. Are they wrong to do so, just because they have the bug lawyers and the other side is the little guy?

It does not have to be heavy handed. A polite letter is all it takes bringing concerns in question.

Which, coincidentally, appears to be what WotC have in fact done.

 

[martinlochsen]

Having a legal right to do something doesn't make it morally right, and it does not make it wise. I know this is a tired old argument, but Paizo is handling cases like this in a very different way, and they are making a lot of money. You don't have to beat down on your fans to make money. Really. And for the record, I'm talking primarily about the Pathguy site here.

Pathguy is someone who has contributed to the community and to the hobby for a very long time with his generators for all editions of the game, right. And now, suddenly, it all gets taken down in one sweep. Originally, he also removed his Pathfinder generators because the letters he got demanded that as well. But after a few days, those were back up. The generators are very much alike, in terms of how much copyrighted content they contain. So what does that tell you? Paizo don't mind. That's what it tells you. They have a completely different business model based on giving their fans easy access to their stuff instead of hoarding it and proteting it like a gluttonous dragon.

And I'm not a Paizo fanboy either. I played Pathfinder for two years and I didn't like it. For many reasons. It's not really relevant, but this is the sort of thing some people get hung up on, you know.

I can easily understand the logic behind these actions. With the rules of the game freely available on the net, the extra character options presented in the PHB will be it's main selling point. The pathguy site did give people the opportunity to enjoy those extra options without buying the book. It is an understandable, but unwise and really quite cowardly act to shut it down. Paizo has all of their material (sourcebooks and everything) available for free on their website. They sell their books in easily pirateable pdf-format. And they are still selling those same books like crazy, to the point of becoming the leading company in the industry.

So my real point here is just that I think Wizards is choosing the wrong tactic here, being to scared of the digital reality. And I'm not really angry or anything. I see that they are within their rights to do everything that they are doing. It's just very, very frustrating being a fan of a game that is being supported by a company that seems more interested in protecting their property than giving us players what we want and need to play the game. When I heard the news about the free Basic rules, I was really surprised and happy. I thought they had decided on a new direction for their marketing tactics. Now I see that I was wrong, and it makes me both a bit disillusioned and disappointed.
I will still play 5e to death though, because I love it.

---edit: Added spaces between paragraphs, for readability

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Having a legal right to do something doesn't make it morally right, and it does not make it wise.

Doing something illegal, even if popular, does not make it morally right, and it does not make it wise.

So what does that tell you?

Nothing.

Perhaps it is as you say. But for all you know, he and Paizo reached an out of court settlement, possibly not unlike the one I mentioned upthread. Or, perhaps he has decided to defy Paizo's wishes, like the guy who is making left shark models and, after initial compliance, has decided to fight Katy Perry et alia over whether he can do so.

Maybe he successfully blackmailed Paizo's management into backing off.

IOW, without more info, all we know is that his stuff is back up, we know nothing of how Paizo feels about it.

 

[delericho]

Having a legal right to do something doesn't make it morally right, and it does not make it wise. I know this is a tired old argument, but Paizo is handling cases like this in a very different way, and they are making a lot of money. You don't have to beat down on your fans to make money. Really. And for the record, I'm talking primarily about the Pathguy site here.

In cases like these, the details matter. In particular, it matters whether the generator is produced within the bounds of IP law or if it does not. In this case, it looks like infringement; in the Pathguy case it looks a bit different, and so my reaction is a bit different. (But, of course, not being an IP lawyer, and also not knowing every detail of both cases I stand ready to be corrected on any point - always a peril of working with incomplete information.)

Originally, he also removed his Pathfinder generators because the letters he got demanded that as well. But after a few days, those were back up. The generators are very much alike, in terms of how much copyrighted content they contain. So what does that tell you?

Actually, nothing. The Pathfinder generator was taken down because of a letter from WotC, not Paizo. AFAIK, Paizo have taken no action at all as regards the generator, either to say "stop" or to say "we're okay with it."

Besides, just because person P is okay with you using their stuff doesn't mean person W should also be okay with it - if it's their stuff then they get to choose who gets to use it.

So my real point here is just that I think Wizards is choosing the wrong tactic here, being to scared of the digital reality.

I'm inclined to agree that WotC could do better in the digital sphere, and that does indeed include such things as making PDFs available for sale and getting their own tools up and running.

But that's really a different issue from their response to these character generators, and tying them together really doesn't help. Because it's WotC prerogative to decide when (or even if) to make these things available, and not that of people who produce tools that infringe* on their IP.

* Again, that "infringe" is an important detail. As I noted in that other thread, copyright laws exist for a very good reason but they also have some significant limits also for good reason. And so a person who can produce a non-infringing tool should be able to go about his lawful business without being hassled by WotC. It's only if and when the line is crossed that that changes. As I said, the details matter.

 

[Dannager]

This is obviously a hot issue. Anyone on this thread who has been saying that digital tools don't matter, or a few of us are the only ones concerned, is wrong.

To these people I say, stop being prideful and stubborn. Listen to the criticism of your fans and make some changes on how you distribute your Cease & Desist orders.

Is someone making money off of your Intellectual Property? C&D them.
Is a fan making no money off of a digital tool that you have no official alternative for? Apologize to them and ask them to publish their digital tool online again to promote your game.

If not, people like me are going to not only go to another game, we are going to actively bad mouth you.

I work with copyright lawyers every day. I teach them English and we were playing 5th Edition. Now we have moved to a d20 Edition which promotes a modified mix of Pathfinder and 13th Age.

I literally have a team of the best copyright lawyers in Japan.
I can prove with email that during the play-testing of 4th Edition, I was among the first to suggest actions and reactions and also among the first to suggest many game elements that 5th edition uses.

I can prove it here and now. Many of you on En World, know just how irritating I was trying to convince 5th Edition that multiple actions was a good idea and I repeatedly published action economy systems here.

I created this digital tool in just a few days.
http://d20game.weebly.com

What is your excuse for not having a digital tool?

Oh my god what are you even

By the way, your d20game.weebly.com website is engaged in an infringing use of ArenaNet property. And the iTorrentz bookmark in your browser toolbar in that screenshot sure shows a clear respect for intellectual property rights. Glad you have a team of the best copyright lawyers in Japan watching your back over there!

 

[ren1999]

I do. The screen shot is intentional. I am awaiting any response. Dannager, before you say anything else, I want you to know that I am not just an English teacher here in Japan. I do have a connection with the U.S. Government. Be very careful what you say.

Edited to say,
If you are law enforcement, or a member of a federal agency, you better inform me now.

 

[Morrus]

I do. The screen shot is intentional. I am awaiting any response. Dannager, before you say anything else, I want you to know that I am not just an English teacher here in Japan. I do have a connection with the U.S. Government. Be very careful what you say.

While Dannagar scored an Olympic Gold in obnoxious snide, you just went overboard in creepy threats. Neither of you post in this thread again, please. You both fundamentally misunderstood what you agreed to when you registered.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

ren1999...dude.

 

[aramis erak]

Did you just argue "If people reply about general legal issues and WOTC, then they specifically think this issue of digital tools is important to them, and anyone who disagrees is wrong"?

Looked that way. In which case, that's terrible logic. I could post a thread about Orc & Pie and get lots and lots of replies, and nobody would actually care about it. I could post ANY topic about the internal workings of WOTC, down to the price of their vending machine stuff and what's in those machines, and get lots of replies. Being a hot issue is not the same as proof people care about part of that issue for real - it just means they like to talk about it (because it's fun).



Doctor, heal thyself. Oh, and stop being so damn insulting to your peers.

Importance of topic and volume of non-humor posts tend to correlate fairly strongly... I don't see a whole lot of laughter here...