Third Party: If So, Then What?

[Obryn]

So, how many SETTINGS have been released for 4th Edition?

Non-WotC?

I can only name Kalamar and Wraith Recon.

-O

 

[ggroy]

Non-WotC?

I can only name Kalamar and Wraith Recon.

-O

Other 4E settings:

Scarrport - Mongoose Publishing : For All Your Gaming Needs ...
Scarred Lands - only 4E version of Creature Collection released
Blackmoor - Zeitgeist

Amethyst - Amethyst
Nevermore - Expeditious Retreat Press
Freeport - Green Ronin/Expeditious Retreat Press

Age of Legend (Earthdawn) - RedBrick Limited • Raising Your Game

 

[ggroy]

Production values improved, less competitive companies dried up, and by the mid-end of 3.5, everything being produced and sold was of a pretty high standard.

We're still at that point. Standards are high. There's an expectation that 3pp's understand the mechanics they're writing for. Full-color is almost demanded nowadays, too. A 3pp needs to be able to compete with WotC on their home turf, and that's frankly a pretty tall order.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is one big factor in keeping the 4E 3pp market relatively small, especially with respect to print products in FLGS and bookstores.

This time around there is also the mature pdf and print-on-demand markets, which didn't seem to be as prevalent back in 2000-2001. I suppose back in 2000-2002, the one obvious route to sell one's products would be to have printed books in FLGS and bookstores. Today it's probably easier for a smaller 3pp company to sell its titles at pdf retailers (like drivethrurpg), than to print up books and convince skeptical distributors and retailers to stock it. I suspect part of the relatively underwhelming market for 4E and Pathfinder 3PP titles so far, is that a lot of stuff never shows up in print and is only available as pdfs or print-on-demand. In the eyes of less hardcore gamers, sight unseen (at FLGS and/or bookstores) becomes almost synonymous with "it does not exist".

Besides the hardcore gamers who keep up with the pdf/pod markets, less hardcore gamers don't seem to be aware of nor even that interested in rpg titles sold through the pdf/pod market. Of the gamers I know locally, it's mainly some of the hardcore gamers who are avid purchasers of pdf or print-on-demand rpg titles. Hardly anybody else is interested in pdf rpg titles. (Free pdfs do not even interest many less hardcore gamers I know).

Perhaps this time around the pdf/pod market has created sort of a "ghetto" where smaller 3pp publishers have gravitated to, instead of the traditional print/distributor/FLGS channel. Some of the better selling 3pp titles may end up in print, such as the "Tome of Secrets" book for Pathfinder. (I saw "Tome of Secrets" at a local FLGS today). On the other hand, a title which sells 100 pdf copies or less, is probably not worth the trouble of printing up and dealing with the headaches of convincing distributors and FLGS to carry it.

Whatever "3PP bubble" there was for 4E, it's probably been more or less deflated or popped by now.

There doesn't appear to be a 3PP "bubble" for Pathfinder so far. (Though it may be still too early to tell). With a purported significantly smaller market size for Pathfinder (compared to 4E D&D), I doubt a Pathfinder "3pp bubble" of any significant size will occur. Who knows? Maybe "Tome of Secrets" was the peak of the "Pathfinder 3pp bubble"?

 

[CapnZapp]

I blogged about this topic.

Sorry, but that read pretty much as the standard 4E bash, only thinly veiled.

You're making it out to be that 4E gamers are of a different kind than 3E gamers, which is balderdash. If the GSL and the economy was friendlier I'm sure we'd see more 4E 3PP products.

 

[CapnZapp]

In an interesting coincidence, the ever amazing Alexis of Tao of D&D posted the following:

Tried to read. Didn't understand. How is that blog post applicable to this discussion...?

 

[CapnZapp]

We've heard several reports that 4e third party products are underselling Pathfinder products for some publishers. We also know 4e, overall, seems to be fairly healthy, if not a complete runaway hit. This should give you pause. Ordinarily, we would expect that the game with more sales would have more customers buying 3PP products.

Given that most PDF sales of anything usually run 300 copies or less, given that Pathfinder products are equalling or outperforming 4e third party stuff, given that under the best circumstances, few original settings "make it"... I think I can say I have the firm basis to say that someone who thinks there is a 4e market waiting to be tapped for original settings is fooling themselves. Now, it might be possible to create the market with the right product, but such breakthroughs are difficult and unpredictable.

If all it takes is a great product, where is Midnight? When did the new Krynn ever look like it was going to take off?

Good point.

I believe 3PPs would be wise to stay clear of doing player-oriented material, instead focusing on adventures and other DM prep materials (mostly that use and reorg existing elements).

Yes, that sucks for sales, but thems the breaks.

 

[pawsplay]

Sorry, but that read pretty much as the standard 4E bash, only thinly veiled.

You're making it out to be that 4E gamers are of a different kind than 3E gamers, which is balderdash. If the GSL and the economy was friendlier I'm sure we'd see more 4E 3PP products.

If you want to blame the economy, explain why 3pp products for a smaller market (Pathfinder) are outselling 4e.

Let's look at the 4e versus 3.5 Pathfinder split in practical terms. Now it's probably safe to say that in most major respects, the 4e and 3e crowds are similar, and it's important to keep in mind that a lot of players play both.

Let me know if it is still somehow unclear I am talking about generalties, not species of gamers.

Your GSL/economy theory is interesting but seems directly contradicted by the evidence presented in the OP.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'd really like to have a sandbox style adventure/small setting like "Vault of Larin Karr" for 4E.

Oooo. That would be nice.

But, I imagine for the masses, it would have to come with some electronic doodads to take it over the top. Like a Monster Builder export of the custom monsters or digital maps at 1" scale.

I would too love a VoLK-like product for 4E.

But I don't understand the focus on new campaign worlds discussed lately in the thread.

I think most lock-out issues would go away if you limited your scope to writing a series of "Points of Light"-compatible* adventures, where the focus was on story and encounter design.

And not on new monsters or new player options.

At least; this is what I understand will work best given the constraints of the GSL. (And not coincidentally, this is precisely what WotC wants you to do)

*) That is, adventures you can fit into any campaign world.

 

[pawsplay]

CapnZapp, the problem with creating very generic scenarios is that it's a little hard to get past orc-and-pie in terms of story and challenges. That is why every version of the game has an implied setting, whether it's Greyhawk or the Known World or the implied setting of AEG's Mercenaries or the Scarred Lands. It's going to be hard to write something that works in the Forgotten Realms as well as Dark Sun.

 

[CapnZapp]

CapnZapp, the problem with creating very generic scenarios is that it's a little hard to get past orc-and-pie in terms of story and challenges. That is why every version of the game has an implied setting, whether it's Greyhawk or the Known World or the implied setting of AEG's Mercenaries or the Scarred Lands. It's going to be hard to write something that works in the Forgotten Realms as well as Dark Sun.

I think the larger issue is that being relegated to supplying WotC with adventures is not what most 3PP have in mind.

Writing good adventures is hard in general. Writing a good adventure that is very generic is very hard, but I didn't say you had to do that.

Place them in PoL-land instead. Unless I'm mistaken, the point of that "world" is that it doesn't disallow you from making up the village of Huntington or Count Yourdoom.

If you keep the larger picture sufficiently hazy (and perhaps use generic labels for gods such as the God of Knowledge, the God of Piracy) most DMs should find a place for your stories in their own campaign world.



It might be worth repeating why I'm notthinking custom-made campaign worlds: this is because this sets up the promise of new mechanics and new monsters. A promise 4E 3PPs currently can't deliver on.