Third Party: If So, Then What?

[BryonD]

And then the question is, "Is this a bad thing?"

Depends on what you want. If you want to have a thriving 3PP market with a lot of different points of view and ideas. Then, it looks like the answer is "yeah". If you want to get 1,000 new subscribers before Christmas, so far the answer appears to be "yeah".

Personally, I would say no. For all the complaints about how 4e isn't a roleplaying game, the DMG1 and DMG2 have more useful information in actually encouraging DMs to put on that roleplaying hat.

I've been a player since 1e and a DM since 2e, and while the crunch has always been adequate in modifying the game for DMs, I never found D&D to be especially strong much less decent in actually encouraging/teaching the art of being a DM.

I look at 4e DMG 1 (best DMG ever for teaching a newbie to relatively new DM) and DMG2 (great resorce for intermediate and even old pros) and I look at all the way WOTC designed 4e.

They intentionally tried to make it more easy for DMs since I believe WTC has realized that the biggest impediment to D&D isn't the players (Really, finding players has never been a problem IMO) but actually getting one of the poor suckers to be a DM.

Shrug. I've been through all this too many time already.
Putting the ball on a tee doesn't make the hitter any more talented.

If you are playing a game designed to make it "easy" on the "sucker", then you've already given in.

If you need easy, then you need easy. Cool. But if you don't need easy, why be shackled to it?

Honestly, the concept of a DM being a "poor sucker" is alien to my experience. But it fits perfectly with my negative views on 4E. The great DMs I've known loved DMing even when they were newbies, learning the ropes the hard way. And then they become great DMs in a system for great DMs. So much better than your "poor sucker" getting by because the system has been ratcheted down to his level.

The bottom line is, if someone *needs* the simplicity of 4E to DM, and isn't comfortable taking the helm for a more advanced system, then I don't really want that person DMing for me in any system.

But, the on topic point is, the KISS players are going to (as a group) be a lot less interested in increasing the variables. So the value of things like 3PP and on line communities goes down. And you get what we got.

 

[BryonD]

Maybe because 4E doesn't really need ENWorld like the OGL movement did. 4E has WotC's forums(even with their current ugliness), and we have RPGnet(actually has the best 4E discussion these days IMO) as well. ENWorld isn't the flagship 4E forum like it was the flagship OGL forum.

Perhaps. But those places were around during 3E as well. The circumstances fit the model, so to me it is pretty easy to see.

 

[BryonD]

And in and of itself, may that very notion, support on multiple occassions be the 'real' problem?

No. Those occasions were largely the result of growth and the need more more and better.

As Morrus said, this time it is about revenue drying up.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Perhaps. But those places were around during 3E as well. The circumstances fit the model, so to me it is pretty easy to see.

The difference is that ENWorld has had a stronger OGL/3PP focus than those other places.

 

[AllisterH]

*Heh*

You make it sound like you're a superhero if you're a DM BryonD.

It shouldn't be IMO.

4e is a game at its heart and should be one that makes it fun for both players and DMs. I really found that D&D always threw DMs into the deep end and seemed to think "ok, you're a great DM if you can survive that".

Personally, I don't believe that's necessarily true. Teach, make it easier for players and you'll get more people willing to take a chance and with a higher pool of DMs, you'll actually GET more great DMs.

You're also forgetting that many a complaint over the years of players being stuck with BAD DMs but not feeling comfortable to try and become one themselves.

 

[Mark]

As Morrus said, this time it is about revenue drying up.

And the on topic point apropos to that is that EN World is essentially a 3PP support product, a sort of shareware model, but a support product nonetheless. It primarily supports the most recent version of D&D, by default, and other things besides like PF, some GSL 3PP companies, some OGL companies, other RPGs, etc., but primarily supports the most recent version of D&D. The question of the thread is "Third Party: If So, Then What?" which assumes first and foremost that 3PPs can exist but if the most central 3PP product, EN World, cannot muster enough interest to get more than 15-20% of the return support needed to exist, then I have to question the premise of the thread, or at least question the premise of EN World. If it is true what was posted upthread in regard to 4E not needed EN World, then is it perhaps time to wonder if EN World needs 4E? And can something else bring enough support to EN World to replace it? And would that opportunity even exist or does a lack of enough return support from 4E simply mean no more EN World period?

 

[BryonD]

*Heh*

You make it sound like you're a superhero if you're a DM BryonD.

Quite the opposite. You are the one who flat out said they were "poor suckers". I'm just holding them to a higher standard than that.

4e is a game at its heart and should be one that makes it fun for both players and DMs.

Ok.
3E is a game at its heart and is one that makes it fun for both players and DMs.

I really found that D&D always threw DMs into the deep end and seemed to think "ok, you're a great DM if you can survive that".

Kinda like baseball? The rules of baseball don't change just because you are new. You might play tee-ball to learn some, but you move on to baseball as soon as you can. If 4E is the beginner game and WotC has a secret plan to release a game for experienced DMs in the near future, then I take everything back. But 4E is still newbie teeball no matter how long you play.

You're also forgetting that many a complaint over the years of players being stuck with BAD DMs but not feeling comfortable to try and become one themselves.

I'm not forgetting that. I'm just saying that a bad DM is still a bad DM, even if the system is brought down to them.

 

[BryonD]

The difference is that ENWorld has had a stronger OGL/3PP focus than those other places.

Ok. Circular argument.

 

[BryonD]

Hey Mark,

I wish I knew the answers to your questions.

 

[pawsplay]

If ENWorld used to be the go-to place for D&D news, it kind of raises the question: what is ENWorld's brand now?

I can offer my personal preferences, but if they aren't shared a few thousand other people, it's moot. For any commnity to survive, there has to be a critical mass of interest. For ENWorld to survive, work has to be put into making something ENWorld distinct and positively regarded.

Same applies to a 4e creative community.

In many, many ways, the rpg hobby exists apart from D&D the retail product. 3pp products are for hobbyists, not the mall.