Third Party: If So, Then What?

[BryonD]

I'm supposed to 'step up' so you and your buddies can go on and on and on about how 4e killed your dog and ruined your forum?

Before 4E the community was pretty unified. I don't think we would have agreed at the time, but everything is relative.

Now there are people who strongly dislike 3E and people who strongly dislike 4E.

Of course deflecting any actual criticism as "killed your dog" isn't exactly unifying.

 

[Jack99]

Are you honestly claiming that the same people are here as used to be? That is just absurd.

The same people? Maybe not, but maybe it's just new people? I have no numbers but those that are available to everyone.

AFAIK; the numbers of members has only kept rising. 4e brought a +25% jump within a relatively timeframe.

The 3e rules forum has 530.000 posts since February 2002 - that's an average of 5780 posts per month - The 4e rules forums have 330.000 posts since August 2007 - that's an average of 12700 posts per month. Seems there is some interest - still. Because even if people stopped posting in the 4e rules forums today, it would still have a better average in two years.

I will however concede that you could be right. While I have been coming here for 10 years, I only really became active when 4e was announced. Mostly because I can't be arsed to spend time on a site solely to discuss a game that isn't my thing. So if you tell me that it is evident that there used to be more people here, in the good old days, I just have to believe you

 

[BryonD]

The same people? Maybe not, but maybe it's just new people? I have no numbers but those that are available to everyone.

AFAIK; the numbers of members has only kept rising. 4e brought a +25% jump within a relatively timeframe.

Can someone stop being a member? Of course total membership goes up.

The 3e rules forum has 530.000 posts since February 2002 - that's an average of 5780 posts per month - The 4e rules forums have 330.000 posts since August 2007 - that's an average of 12700 posts per month. Seems there is some interest - still. Because even if people stopped posting in the 4e rules forums today, it would still have a better average in two years.

I don't think comparing averages over these time periods is meaningful. Prior to 4e, the general forum was the primary discussion place. "3e rules" was one of the back room forums. It was very active. But nothing compared to general. The forums have also been revised and re-org several times since 2002.

I will however concede that you could be right. While I have been coming here for 10 years, I only really became active when 4e was announced. Mostly because I can't be arsed to spend time on a site solely to discuss a game that isn't my thing. So if you tell me that it is evident that there used to be more people here, in the good old days, I just have to believe you

Well, my main point was that it was not the "same". However, I also believe that traffic is down.

I know alexa gets questioned but...

enworld.org - Traffic Details from Alexa

 

[AllisterH]

I simply think there are more venues available for fans to congregate.

When this site was launched, it _WAS_ the premiere site for D&D chatter. RPGnet being the only other one around and that had more of a "anything but D&D vibe"

(People think WOTC's boards are bad now, but the original webboards where Eric and I used to hang out? When they still had the Beholder/TSR logo on the frontpage? Now that was a crappy board..I'm not even sure I'd call it a board but more of a usenet interface)

I honestly don't think it was 4e that caused the split so much as OTHER places becoming just as interesting...If anything, the Dragonsfoot creation (the anything but 3.x board) was the first time when we actually saw a split in the community.

 

[Umbran]

I understand that. Do you think he should punt this approach and make another "one time" drive? Would that work?

Whether that would work for the short run or not is probably immaterial. I don't speak for Morrus, but I cannot fault him for turning away from short term, one-off solutions. That just sets us up for the same stress and worry all over again in the future. Who needs that?

EN World sits in a funny sort of place. It is far too big to support out of one's own pocket as a hobby site. But, EN World isn't a big publisher, that can fund the site as a sideline expense as support for other business. We have big-board costs without real business revenues. That just isn't supportable in the long term.

This is what remains to be seen - is the content EN World delivers worth roughly one cup of high-end coffee per month to it's users?

 

[drothgery]

I understand that. Do you think he should punt this approach and make another "one time" drive? Would that work?

When unemployment among under-25s in the US is nearly 50%? Probably not.

 

[Mark]

I'm supposed to 'step up' so you and your buddies can go on and on and on about how 4e killed your dog and ruined your forum?

Apparently the notion that 4E players can have this opinion eluded you. Besides, it isn't a matter of "ruining" its a matter of the forum closing if the current focus doesn't support it.

 

[pawsplay]

On the contrary, I was considering becoming a comunity supporter, but I decided not to because I don't like the way the mods operate. Am I supposed to support the comunity no matter how the comunity acts? I'm supposed to 'step up' so you and your buddies can go on and on and on about how 4e killed your dog and ruined your forum?

People are entitled to their opinions. 3.5 fans got to hear a months-long campaign, largely spearheaded by Wizards itself, to tell us how much 3e sucked. You seem to be implying this site is some sort of holdout for anti-4e grumblers; speaking for myself, if anything, I think the board was probably biased toward 4e in the beginning. Possibly with good reason; you can't run a web site intent on squashing the new shinies. This is a D&D site primarily, after all.

If you don't want to hear criticism of 4e, then you should probably stick to 4e-focused forums.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

shrug.

yeah yeah, "no it isn't no it isn't no it isn't" is such a strong rebuttal. Whatever should I do?

For the record (yet again) 4E is successful.
But not all successes are created equal.

Are you honestly claiming that the same people are here as used to be? That is just absurd.

I don't think 4E's success is the issue. The D&D scene is different than it was before, and ENWorld hasn't exactly kept up. It isn't that D&D has grown or shrunk, but that it has fundamentally changed. ENWorld hasn't entirely changed with it.

Before 4E the community was pretty unified. I don't think we would have agreed at the time, but everything is relative.

Now there are people who strongly dislike 3E and people who strongly dislike 4E.

Of course deflecting any actual criticism as "killed your dog" isn't exactly unifying.

I don't think the community taken as a whole was as unified as you think. Some embraced the OGL, some completely ignored it. There are many ways to play 3E, which often flatly contradict one another. People didn't argue like they do now, and mostly just ignored each other though, because possession of the game wasn't in question. No matter their differences, people could feel they "possessed" and were a part of D&D. That isn't so clear anymore, and its what people fight about.

Among all forums I frequent, ENWorld is kind of unique in maintaining this divide. Other forums seem to have as a whole taken one side or the other in terms of the 4E change. There's still argument, but there is a noticable prevailing opinion. RPGnet and WotC strongly skew towards 4E, while Paizo is firmly 3E. This place has always seemed like it was split right down the middle.

 

[Wicht]

I don't think the community taken as a whole was as unified as you think. Some embraced the OGL, some completely ignored it. There are many ways to play 3E, which often flatly contradict one another. People didn't argue like they do now, and mostly just ignored each other though, because possession of the game wasn't in question. No matter their differences, people could feel they "possessed" and were a part of D&D. That isn't so clear anymore, and its what people fight about.

Among all forums I frequent, ENWorld is kind of unique in maintaining this divide. Other forums seem to have as a whole taken one side or the other in terms of the 4E change. There's still argument, but there is a noticable prevailing opinion. RPGnet and WotC strongly skew towards 4E, while Paizo is firmly 3E. This place has always seemed like it was split right down the middle.

Prior to the 4e announcement the ENWorld community was more unified, which I think was the point being made.

This conversation has taken an interesting turn and I really appreciate some of Mark's observations. I think he is right. Prior to 4e, what made EnWorld a such a good place to go was that it was the center of the OGL community. I could come here and learn of new companies, new products, and new ideas for the OGL. More than that, there was an air of creativity that was almost contagious. It made a person want to write, design, even publish. We wanted to share our ideas and our games. It was this atmosphere that first really drew me into the community.

I fell away for a while do to a computer crash and a series of real life moves but when I came back, the community had changed. 4e was in the air and so was divisiveness. Everything was focused on what WotC was designing or releasing. The failure of WotC to support the OGL seemed to make it even worse. There has been a general disdain on the part of many for that very thing that had made this such a unique community - the OGL.

EnWorld, which once had been the hub of the OGL universe (even more so than WotC) is no longer. In fact, if I want to find out what is going on in the OGL world, Paizo is a better place to go. There I find a community which again makes me want to write, design, and even contemplate joining in with publishing.

I have made a decision however to support ENWorld and even sent in my first subscription payment a few days ago. I think it was the revival of Iron DM as much as anything that made me decide to do this. I sincerely hope that ENWorld can find a way to thrive but I suspect that unless it can find a way to better support the gaming community (not just the 4e community) that it may indeed see itself waning. Because I am afraid that it has been my observation from very early on that those most supportive of 4e were those that were least supportive of things not directly released and approved of by WotC.