Third Party: If So, Then What?

[pawsplay]

I'm hoping to spread a little contagious creation myself, besides trying my hardest to be generally civil, congenial, and fun.

 

[darjr]

I'm hoping to spread a little contagious creation myself, besides trying my hardest to be generally civil, congenial, and fun.

and that is awesome.

I hate the divisiveness and the back and forth because I'm caught in the middle. I love 4e. I love 3.5, in many ways it is my second red box and it absolutely is my kids red box. I love AD&D 1e and the actual red box.

I fell in love with ENWorld because it seemed to straddle this divide. Huge long threads with Gary on an ostensibly 3.5 forum? It gave me goosebumps.

I don't know why 3rd parties are having a tough time with 4e, all I see is potential, I aim to do my part in supporting 3rd party 4e material by voting with my dollar. I have not yet surpassed my count of 3.5 3pp books with my 4e ones yet, but I aim to try.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Well, a lot of the 'big' names of the OGL have moved onto other things than D&D clones.

Mind you, some like Monte are still involved with the Dungeon a Day bit but others like Mongoose gained a notorious reputation for delving into crap for D&D products and binding and other things, but have a fanbase for other games like Runequest, Traveller, etc... Green Ronin's Mutants and Masterminds is probably more popular than their Freeport line and even though it's using the OGL, it's not a D&D clone. Other companies have folded due to the 3.5 hit or the Osseum hit.

It could also be that the 3.5 crowd that went to 4e doesn't want any third party support as the amount of 4e official support is huge. I know in my tail end of playing 3.5 that the GM automatically vetoed 99% of all third party material.

It could also be that the brand new 4e crowd doesn't really care about 3rd party support having avoided all of it entirely with the new edition and see no need for it. There's not a lot of 3rd party support for 4e in book stores. When White Wolf was in the ring with the Scarred Lands and other bits, you could go to Borders or Barnes and Nobles and see what was new and going on.

With the PDf support, yeah, there might be more direct sales but if 4e people are mainly bookstore buyers, and with WoTC complete lack of concern for the PDF market, that may be a huge factor.

Outside of Goodman, how many 3rd party publishers have put out any products with high production values that can be found in Borders? Any?

 

[BryonD]

It could also be that the 3.5 crowd that went to 4e doesn't want any third party support ....

Any of your reasons could be right. At the end of the day, it makes no difference WHY the product isn't in demand. It only matters that it isn't.

 

[ggroy]

Mongoose gained a notorious reputation for delving into crap for D&D products and binding and other things

Are you referring to all those Slayer's Guides, Encyclopedia Arcana, Quintessential, Ultimate Guides, etc ... titles? Last time I checked out the bargain bins at several FLGS, it was filled with tons of these particular Mongoose titles. Wonder how many d20 adventure modules Mongoose made in those years.

When White Wolf was in the ring with the Scarred Lands and other bits, you could go to Borders or Barnes and Nobles and see what was new and going on.

Wonder if White Wolf got really spooked by the d20 3PP market glut crashing, and subsequently downsized Sword & Sorcery greatly to a shell of its former self.

Outside of Goodman, how many 3rd party publishers have put out any products with high production values that can be found in Borders? Any?

Nobody. (So far).

 

[JoeGKushner]

And don't mistake me, I'm not saying that being a 3rd party that is actually in stores would be easy.

I think right now the only ones that COULD do it with any degree of success would be the ones who aren't; Green Ronin, Paizo and White Wolf. All of them have their own thing.

In some ways, it's a chicken egg thing. Without someone like Osseum around (and they did a lot of damage on their way out) or another distributor that can get stuff into the stores, the PDF sales are likely the only way we'll see 3rd party stuff and for many PDF's aren't worth while investments.

 

[Wicht]

And don't mistake me, I'm not saying that being a 3rd party that is actually in stores would be easy.

I think right now the only ones that COULD do it with any degree of success would be the ones who aren't; Green Ronin, Paizo and White Wolf. All of them have their own thing.

In some ways, it's a chicken egg thing. Without someone like Osseum around (and they did a lot of damage on their way out) or another distributor that can get stuff into the stores, the PDF sales are likely the only way we'll see 3rd party stuff and for many PDF's aren't worth while investments.

I'm not sure I fully follow you.

Paizo, Green Ronin and White Wolf are all in book stores. I can go to the local Books-A-Million and find both Paizo APs and Green Ronin's True-20 .


Edit: And I also believe Paizo works with Diamond Book Distributors

 

[ggroy]

In some ways, it's a chicken egg thing. Without someone like Osseum around (and they did a lot of damage on their way out) or another distributor that can get stuff into the stores, the PDF sales are likely the only way we'll see 3rd party stuff and for many PDF's aren't worth while investments.

Googling around, found this article about Osseum imploding in 2004.

[Publishing Horror Stories] The Osseum Debacle | The Collective Endeavour

Osseum had a "who's who" client list of smaller d20 3PPs from that time period.

- Green Ronin
- Thunderhead/Mystic Eye Games
- Fast Forward Entertainment
- Bad Axe Games
- Mythic Dream Studios
- Paradigm Concepts
- Bastion Press
- Bard's Productions

Taking Osseum out of the equation and also compounded by the d20 glut crash, I can understand why many of these companies are not doing much these days.

 

[ggroy]

Digging up old archived pages of www.osseum.com at the "wayback machine" and other googling, this is what I found for Osseum's client list.

Auran - d20
Bad Axe Games - d20
Bard's Productions - d20
Bastion Press - d20
BlackWyrm Games - M&M
Contested Ground Studios
Dark Portal Games - d20
Eos Press
Fast Forward Entertainment - d20
Gaslight Press - d20
Ghazpork Industrial
Green Knight Publishing - Pendragon
Green Ronin Publishing - d20
Heresy Gaming
Living Imagination - d20
Louis Porter, Jr. Design - M&M
Mystic Eye Games - d20
Mythic Dreams Studios - d20
Paradigm Concepts, Inc. - d20
Perpetrated Press - d20
Red Spire Press - d20
RPG Objects - d20
Second World Simulations - d20
SkeletonKey Games - d20
Thunderhead Games - d20
Twin Rose Software - d20
Tynes Cowan Corporation
United Playtest, Inc - d20
Valar Project, Inc. - d20
Visionary Entertainment Studios, Inc.

A total of around twenty d20 3PP companies represented by Osseum Entertainment back in 2001-2004. With Osseum out of the picture by 2004 and the d20 bubble bursting, it's no big surprise many of these d20 companies dropped out of sight shortly thereafter. Osseum wasn't there anymore to convince now-skeptical distributors to carry their clients' products.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I'm not sure I fully follow you.

Paizo, Green Ronin and White Wolf are all in book stores. I can go to the local Books-A-Million and find both Paizo APs and Green Ronin's True-20 .


Edit: And I also believe Paizo works with Diamond Book Distributors

Yes, they are all in there. Which one of them is a 3rd party for 4th edition? My bad in not getting that through that all of the people who could get into the chains aren't supporting 4e.