this bard modification OK?

[Driddle]

Player wants to tweek the bard class to fit his concept. Everything remains the same except for the gooey middle bits (the special abilities that fill out the middle of the class progression chart):

* He wants to keep the lore knowledge ability.
* He wants to lose all the musical abilities, and in exchange gain a familiar at 1st level and a bonus feat at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels.
* He wants to call himself a "Lorist" instead of a bard.

Sound balanced to you?

 

[Darren]

Before 10th level, he is going to have a familiar and one extra feat, at most, and no music. That seems weak to me. Depending on the feats, it might work out at high levels. I'd look for a little something extra that would be useful at low levels but less so at high levels so that he has something more to do than make lore checks and cast a few weak spells.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

There's a bard variant in UA called Bardic Sage. It gets a +2 bonus to Lore checks, a few extra spells on the spell list, and its bardic music effects last only 3 rounds after it stops singing.

 

[Nifft]

I also think that the proposed Loreist is kinda weak, but hey -- you don't get ruined games from having a weak PC, you just get to be slightly nicer to that character as a DM.

-- N

 

[Driddle]

Doesn't want the music at all, even in a reduced form. Concept is still a dabbler in multiple "class" concepts without a focus on any one -- and without being forced to sing or rhyme his way through life. (shrug) Eh. Whatchagonnado?

The familiar represents a teensy bit more magical development; the feat access represents additional knowledge or tricks learned from his studies.

Quick-reply consensus is that it's possibly a weak trade, but not overpowering. Cool; we can live with that.

Thanks.

 

[DreamChaser]

Doesn't want the music at all, even in a reduced form. Concept is still a dabbler in multiple "class" concepts without a focus on any one -- and without being forced to sing or rhyme his way through life. (shrug) Eh. Whatchagonnado?

The familiar represents a teensy bit more magical development; the feat access represents additional knowledge or tricks learned from his studies.

Quick-reply consensus is that it's possibly a weak trade, but not overpowering. Cool; we can live with that.

Thanks.

I have found that a great way of doing a combination of the various class concepts of the bard without the music is a fighter/rogue/sorcerer (or a rogue/sorcerer).

I have never understood the "singing" aversion that many (including some of my players) have about the bard. And I haven't yet met the person who wants to get rid of the "music" for any reason that they want a character that can do everything on some level or another without ever having to give something up for it. (ie. they want to multiclass without multiclassing).

I have in the past and likely will in the future refuse any "bards" that remove the music and don't replace it with anything that keeps the feel of the class different from a sorcerer rogue.

DC

 

[BSF]

Hmm, as a spellcaster, he will still be weaker than the Sorceror or the Wizard. But he will have better BAB & Ref saves. More skill points, ability to cast in light armor, some weapon selection and better HD.

He isn't going to be anywhere near overpowered. Heck, my Bard gets as much use out of music as he does spells. The bonus feats should be OK, as should the Familiar. Though I would be tempted to bump the familiar up to a 2nd level ability to reflect learning the magic a little slower than a wizard would.

If I were to play the PC, I would look for ways that I can overstep into other roles without dominating them. Probably add a little more to the skill list and diversify.
Heh, I would ask you to let me use the Green Ronin Shaman's Handbook and try to take the Animal Companion feat as errata'd for 3.5. Then I would have a familiar and an animal companion. But that's just me and I get wacky ideas at times.

 

[Nifft]

If it's the music that he hates, ask him if he'd like it with a different flavor text.

E.g.: Alchemist: by subtle application of various re-agents, he can imbue himself or his companions with extra-ordinary bonuses in a variety of situations! All while mumbling to himself in a creepy or amusing way.

Or: Shaman of Spirits: by exhorting the latent spirit-energy in his companions / surroundings / objects of interest, he can grant himself or his companions divine bonuses in a variety of situations! All while fondling his fetish*.

Or: Secret Knowlege: by knowing all about secret weaknesses, he grants himself or his allies insightful bonuses in a variety of situations! All while checking his notes.

Then, let him take the Familiar feat from Complete Warrior (or Complete Arcane...), which just allows any class levels that grant Arcane spellcasting to stack with his Wizard or Sorcerer levels for the purpose of his Familiar's special abilities. (Also grants a familiar if you have at least one level of Arcane spellcaster.)

-- N

* (IYKWIM,AITYD!)

 

[LightPhoenix]

So basically the player wants the feats of a wizard, the spontaneous casting of a Sorcerer, and the spellcasting of a Bard?

Why not just have him play a Sorcerer who gets the feats and the lore ability?

 

[Driddle]

... (T)hey want a character that can do everything on some level or another without ever having to give something up for it. (i.e. they want to multiclass without multiclassing).

I have in the past and likely will in the future refuse any "bards" that remove the music and don't replace it with anything that keeps the feel of the class different from a sorcerer rogue.

Uhhmm ... Well then.
I guess we won't be -- sheesh, how do I say this? -- we won't be applying for seats at your gaming table.

Thanks for clearing that up. :\ No non-singing bards. Gotcha.