This DM is regretting let PCs run wild.
knottyprof
First Post
As long as it challenges them and you aren't just sending out a death squad
Also, don't feel bad to exploit the situation if the characters do something (or fail to do something) that would leave them vulnerable.
I DM a group right now where the party thought it was a good idea to hole up in the Big Boss's bedroom before taking out the Big Boss. Even bosses get tired and decide to go to bed so naturally this worked in my favor since the boss found his room occupied and collected all the other lackeys in the level to storm the room from two directions. I am just hoping it doesn't turn into a TPK but if it does it was their decision to pick that location to rest.
Dwimmerlied
First Post
I've been in this situation before, and its likely most of us have; thinking something is really cool or a great addition to the game, and then seeing it unfold with horrific consequence as it did. Fortunately for me, my players were also new to the game at the time, so I could easily sway and control. Here's my analysis:
I'd second the main thrust of the thread so far; embrace the situation (perhaps simply by changing your attitude). One way to look at it; the encounter you said almost resulted in a TPK? That's not uncommon at all in "standard" games; challenging encounters present some risk of character death, and encounters even one or two CRs higher carry a significant risk, and TPKs become quite possible. This is the mechanic designed for the exciting game. If they are breezing through many encounters and are then faced with this "skin of the teeth" encounter you set for them, well I think there are strong parrallels in your more "standard" games also.
I'd say that your players need to up their game; you've (inadvertantly, admittedly) given them the chance to create the best characters that they could possibly dream of, and I'm almost certain they'd have all been thinking that their builds were going to be invincible. Is it an option to let them know this? I think you can tell them that for the game to continue to work for any amount of time, you plan to "take off the kid gloves", and suggest to them that if they want to keep their uber-characters, they need to learn to be very resourceful. I don't think that's adversarial at all.
As a (kind of) new DM, each session would probably leave you assessing things you could have done better or worse, even in the standard game, so no difference here (though there might be slightly more thinking and planning required). Don't worry if you put a creature in that was too hard, but make the time to fairly evaluate how that creature worked later. A TPK almost did happen, but was that inevitable? OK, so you didnt intend for it to be that deadly, but was it fun? Could you actually get away with doing it again? This will contribute to your experience and capability as a DM.
Edit; Also, welcome to the boards!
I'd second the main thrust of the thread so far; embrace the situation (perhaps simply by changing your attitude). One way to look at it; the encounter you said almost resulted in a TPK? That's not uncommon at all in "standard" games; challenging encounters present some risk of character death, and encounters even one or two CRs higher carry a significant risk, and TPKs become quite possible. This is the mechanic designed for the exciting game. If they are breezing through many encounters and are then faced with this "skin of the teeth" encounter you set for them, well I think there are strong parrallels in your more "standard" games also.
I'd say that your players need to up their game; you've (inadvertantly, admittedly) given them the chance to create the best characters that they could possibly dream of, and I'm almost certain they'd have all been thinking that their builds were going to be invincible. Is it an option to let them know this? I think you can tell them that for the game to continue to work for any amount of time, you plan to "take off the kid gloves", and suggest to them that if they want to keep their uber-characters, they need to learn to be very resourceful. I don't think that's adversarial at all.
As a (kind of) new DM, each session would probably leave you assessing things you could have done better or worse, even in the standard game, so no difference here (though there might be slightly more thinking and planning required). Don't worry if you put a creature in that was too hard, but make the time to fairly evaluate how that creature worked later. A TPK almost did happen, but was that inevitable? OK, so you didnt intend for it to be that deadly, but was it fun? Could you actually get away with doing it again? This will contribute to your experience and capability as a DM.
Edit; Also, welcome to the boards!
The standard ways to overcome AC are to use 1) Magic Missiles/Melf's Acid Arrows/Fireballs (etc) or 2) Touch attacks from Wraiths, Warlocks or 3) Rust Monsters or 4) Antimagic zones.
I restrict my players to the Players Handbook for classes, spells, feats and I have made an exception only for the Miniatures Handbook and also to allow the Warlock class in. If you have to start over then consider this. But really, don't be afraid to kill the characters. The players are trying to break the game.
I restrict my players to the Players Handbook for classes, spells, feats and I have made an exception only for the Miniatures Handbook and also to allow the Warlock class in. If you have to start over then consider this. But really, don't be afraid to kill the characters. The players are trying to break the game.
aglondier
Explorer
Give your next Evil Lieutenant(TM) two magic items and let him grind them down. The items? A Ring of Improved Invisibility, and a fully charged Wand of Summon Monster III. Every round a handful of summoned fiendish creatures appear somewhere near them and attack...very soon they are swamped with summoned critters, or using up resources to wipe them out. Don't let them catch him, or figure out how he is doing it...if you can help it... 
On the other hand, both lack of limits and gestalt were probably mistakes. Let them be munchy for a bit longer, then drop the game for something a bit better balanced.
On the other hand, both lack of limits and gestalt were probably mistakes. Let them be munchy for a bit longer, then drop the game for something a bit better balanced.
Nytmare
David Jose
I'd argue that it also really depends on what kind of game you and your players want to play.
For me, I'd talk to everyone about starting over with more restrictions; but that's because I, in general, want to run a game that isn't a power struggle on this kind of scale.
If everyone (including you) is enjoying a character design arms race, there's nothing wrong with it.
For me, I'd talk to everyone about starting over with more restrictions; but that's because I, in general, want to run a game that isn't a power struggle on this kind of scale.
If everyone (including you) is enjoying a character design arms race, there's nothing wrong with it.
- Any source material
- Gestalt is allowed
- No monster races
- No Lv Adj over +3
My opinion and how I would do it.
0. Restart with your new found knowledge.
1. Its a good idea to point out "anything from WotC" and must be 3.5 or has update material from 3. (This way you guys are withing the "rules")
2. Only use Gestalt when there is a shortage of people (2-3 players).
3. Good idea, but "monster race" must be defined (example: anything with racial HD).
4. This is a good, but only user this rule if they start with ECL 4 at least.
5. If they want to use non-WotC, non-3.5 stuff, let them run them by you, then you take some time to study their choice, compare it to existing 3.5 stuff.
Most things from the internet are baaad (I'm thinking "home-made-uploaded-to-a -forum-or-wiki" stuff), some are unbalanced, I have seen stuff that completely disregard the 3.5 system, and they are meant to be used within the system by the uploader.
Empirate
First Post
I'd say start over, like others said, and never allow homebrew ever, unless you have a very, very good idea of what it can do. If you don't want to do that, here's some pointers:
1. Note that AC is not the be-all, end-all of good defense. Touch attacks, area effects, debuffs, save-or-sucks, combat maneuvers etc. all work just fine, so use those some of the time. Really, there is no such thing as invulnerability in D&D. Even if you don't use the more specialized stuff all the time, AC 25 is far from unhittable. Even normal CR 4 critters can hit that on a 12 (Rhinoceros, Y White Dragon), 14 (VY Blue Dragon, Brown Bear, Griffon, Giant Crocodile), 15 (Giant Stag Beetle) or 16 (Owlbear, Minotaur, Tiger). That's not a bad chance, especially if you take flanking, charging, high ground, buffs, multiple attacks etc. into account.
2. Artificers need gold and downtime to be powerful, and can make good use of foreknowledge about what the party will be facing. Nerfing artificers isn't even required, but making sure they're not always in their comfort zone is highly recommended. Time pressure is an excellent way of making sure he won't get in your face with permanent buff items you didn't expect all the time. Another way is surprising the PCs with new and unique challenges from time to time. Also, Artificers live on items. There is stuff out there that covets said items, or just wants to destroy it. Thieves' guilds, Rust Monsters, sunder-focused Fighters, antimagic zones...
3. Gestalt effectively makes PCs two or even three levels more powerful than the number next to "level: " on their character sheet seems to indicate. Don't go all "Omigod, he's got AC 25 at level FOUR!". Coz that's only a number which doesn't say much in gestalt. Plan your encounters around CR 6 enemies being standard, easily killed opponents, with more challenging fights involving two or three of those, and you'll be fine. At this level, hitting AC 25 isn't really that big of a deal. It will happen.
4. Mix it up tactically. Don't go easy on them where the situation's setup is concerned, so instead of Ogres and Worgs on a plain, let them fight some Shadows in total darkness, dodging in and out of the walls; or have them rescue a damsel in distress from being drowned by some Kapoacinth under water; or stop some flying opponents from overturning a balancing platform the party is trapped on; or engage them with rat swarms in a labyrinth with sliding walls; etc. You get the idea, challenge not only their "numbers game", but also their tactical acumen and their ability to think on their feet.
5. The players are probably having fun with this one. So don't take it all away, instead let them have an easy(er) victory once and again! After all, that's what they expected out of the setup.
6. However, you can expect your players to work with you, too. So if they come up with truly game-breaking stuff, which even the community can't help you with, you're within your rights to tell them to tone it down. After all, it won't make the game more enjoyable for them if you're not having fun and are constantly frustrated!
1. Note that AC is not the be-all, end-all of good defense. Touch attacks, area effects, debuffs, save-or-sucks, combat maneuvers etc. all work just fine, so use those some of the time. Really, there is no such thing as invulnerability in D&D. Even if you don't use the more specialized stuff all the time, AC 25 is far from unhittable. Even normal CR 4 critters can hit that on a 12 (Rhinoceros, Y White Dragon), 14 (VY Blue Dragon, Brown Bear, Griffon, Giant Crocodile), 15 (Giant Stag Beetle) or 16 (Owlbear, Minotaur, Tiger). That's not a bad chance, especially if you take flanking, charging, high ground, buffs, multiple attacks etc. into account.
2. Artificers need gold and downtime to be powerful, and can make good use of foreknowledge about what the party will be facing. Nerfing artificers isn't even required, but making sure they're not always in their comfort zone is highly recommended. Time pressure is an excellent way of making sure he won't get in your face with permanent buff items you didn't expect all the time. Another way is surprising the PCs with new and unique challenges from time to time. Also, Artificers live on items. There is stuff out there that covets said items, or just wants to destroy it. Thieves' guilds, Rust Monsters, sunder-focused Fighters, antimagic zones...
3. Gestalt effectively makes PCs two or even three levels more powerful than the number next to "level: " on their character sheet seems to indicate. Don't go all "Omigod, he's got AC 25 at level FOUR!". Coz that's only a number which doesn't say much in gestalt. Plan your encounters around CR 6 enemies being standard, easily killed opponents, with more challenging fights involving two or three of those, and you'll be fine. At this level, hitting AC 25 isn't really that big of a deal. It will happen.
4. Mix it up tactically. Don't go easy on them where the situation's setup is concerned, so instead of Ogres and Worgs on a plain, let them fight some Shadows in total darkness, dodging in and out of the walls; or have them rescue a damsel in distress from being drowned by some Kapoacinth under water; or stop some flying opponents from overturning a balancing platform the party is trapped on; or engage them with rat swarms in a labyrinth with sliding walls; etc. You get the idea, challenge not only their "numbers game", but also their tactical acumen and their ability to think on their feet.
5. The players are probably having fun with this one. So don't take it all away, instead let them have an easy(er) victory once and again! After all, that's what they expected out of the setup.
6. However, you can expect your players to work with you, too. So if they come up with truly game-breaking stuff, which even the community can't help you with, you're within your rights to tell them to tone it down. After all, it won't make the game more enjoyable for them if you're not having fun and are constantly frustrated!
You don't really need to exploit any weak points, just use higher level monsters. It's less time consuming. Just be careful about monsters that ignore their high AC.
Funkmaster Rick
Explorer
Don't start over. Want to exploit their weak points? Try politics and intrigue! >=D
No, but seriously: you can handle this. They're obviously not going to be normal people, but try to think of ways they affect the world around them; if you're on the spot about it, chances are they'll get themselves into enough trouble without too much interference from you.
I mean, I've always been of the opinion that you save the broken mechanics for the best characters among your stable; if the backstory is good, cheese can be justifiable. But you're past that point now.
Also, spellcasters are your friend. Obviously, they're not always going to have just the right spell to deal with the group (barring foreknowledge, mundane or magical), but a good spellcaster or two will bone them in a few ways.
Also, the gestalt artificer? It's hard to make magical items without the resources being available. Bonus points if it's because he used up the town's supply by himself. ^_^
No, but seriously: you can handle this. They're obviously not going to be normal people, but try to think of ways they affect the world around them; if you're on the spot about it, chances are they'll get themselves into enough trouble without too much interference from you.
I mean, I've always been of the opinion that you save the broken mechanics for the best characters among your stable; if the backstory is good, cheese can be justifiable. But you're past that point now.
Also, spellcasters are your friend. Obviously, they're not always going to have just the right spell to deal with the group (barring foreknowledge, mundane or magical), but a good spellcaster or two will bone them in a few ways.
Also, the gestalt artificer? It's hard to make magical items without the resources being available. Bonus points if it's because he used up the town's supply by himself. ^_^
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