This is usually the part where people start screaming...

[Flynn]

*gives Flynn an odd look*

I want it to be a balanced, usable feat for a standard game. Thats it.

As for 'liking the show so much', I'm not doing it just for the show but trying to make it a usable ability. His true ability would not work in D&D, so I made something with the same flavor but different mechanics.

Sorry, you must have caught me in the midst of rewording my post, because I didn't like the sound of it when I reread it.

As it stands, I'm not sure you come across on the forums as seeking a balanced feat for a standard game, but maybe it's how I read your reactions and challenges to people.

As for the feat, in a standard game, I could imagine giving him the power for the next 24 hours would work well, but I then wouldn't add a new power known permanently. There's already a feat that can do that, IIRC.

Hope that helps,
Flynn

 

[The Vorpal Tribble]

As it stands, I'm not sure you come across on the forums as seeking a balanced feat for a standard game, but maybe it's how I read your reactions and challenges to people.

Well, I can begin using PEACH if you like...

As for the feat, in a standard game, I could imagine giving him the power for the next 24 hours would work well, but I then wouldn't add a new power known permanently. There's already a feat that can do that, IIRC.

Not to come across as testy, but in this instance I am, and I'm just going to say this one time more.

Expanded Knowledge lets you learn 1 power of your choice from any list.

This feat lets you gain 1 power, after you...

#1. Find a psionic opponent.
#2. Kill it.
#3. Butcher it.
#4. Make a very high skill check.

And you still don't get to have any power you like. You gotta choose from whatever this guy had, which doesn't require it being something you want.

This requires much more effort for a higher reward, assuming you find more than one psionic creature.

 

[Nifft]

I then wouldn't add a new power known permanently. There's already a feat that can do that, IIRC.

... and this is where I'm coming from, too. There is a nice feat which gives you one power within certain restrictions; your proposed feat allows someone to learn more powers, with a higher cap on the maximum level known, with a RP restriction.

RP restrictions are bogus, IMHO. A feat (or class, or whatever) should be mechanically balanced, and the flavor and RP'ing should be left to the individual or group to change without fear of breaking stuff mechanically.

Anyway. Even with the 24 hour limitation, the mechanics encourage "farming".

How about this:

Mmm, Brains! [Psionic]
Prerequisite: Psion level 6+
Benefit: You can eat someone's brain. If you eat a Psionic monster or character's brain, you can learn one power from the general Psion/Wilder list that they knew, or that they could use as a psi-like ability. Add this power to your Known Powers list until you decide to eat another brain, and learn a different power.

You may take this feat more than once; each time you take it, you may learn and retain an additional power.

You may only learn a power of a level one below the maximum you are capable of manifesting.

- - -

Thus, it's flexible -- you can learn new powers -- but it doesn't reward farming & snack-buffing every day. It's also more limited than Expanded Knowledge.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Flynn]

This feat lets you gain 1 power, after you...

#1. Find a psionic opponent.
#2. Kill it.
#3. Butcher it.
#4. Make a very high skill check.

And you still don't get to have any power you like. You gotta choose from whatever this guy had, which doesn't require it being something you want.

You see, this might be the core in our difference in opinions. You regard that as a justification to have effectively unlimited known powers. I don't. I know it's just my opinion, though, but that's my stance on it.

Hasta,
Flynn

 

[Flynn]

Okay, bear with me for a moment. Let's assume that this, as written in your original post, is a feat available in a standard game. The standard game is modeled on 13 encounters per level. Let's further assume that the DM of this standard game creates a quarter of his encounters such that they are psionic in nature, because a quarter of his four-PC band is a psion. That's three psionic encounters per level. Let's assume that each psionic encounter has only one person that you can use this ability on, so that's three targets per level.

You are 9th level when you get the feat, per the prereqs. So that means that at 9th level, you could have up to 5th level powers, right? So could your target, right? You have a modest +15 on the psicraft skill check (assuming a 17 stat at the moment), against a DC of 30, so you have a 30% chance of adding a 5th level ability. You have four chances to "download" a 5th level power before the brain doesn't work anymore. (At 9th, the target likely only has two, so you get to go for 4th level powers as well.) On the average, each encounter would give you a bonus power at your current highest level or the one right below it, and at the end of the level, you would end up with approximately 3 extra 4th-5th level powers permanently.

At 10th, your chance of success goes up to 35%, and you end up with approximately 3 extra 5th-level powers, since the targets now have four powers at your highest level. You now have probably 2 4th level powers, and 4 5th level powers that you didn't have to research. (Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power, and then requires a Psicraft check to add to your list. You did these without the XP investment or the time requirements. Already, this feat has saved you around 5600 XP, right?)

At 11th, your chance of success stays at 35% (because there are higher level powers, but you've upped your ranks as always). You get 1 powers an encounter, and by the end of the level, you have an additional 3 extra 5th-6th level powers. That's a savings in XP of 3600-4000 xp. Combined with the above, you've saved yourself almost a whole level's worth of XP, and you have 2 extra 4th level, 6 extra 5th level, and 2 extra 6th level powers.

It just gets worse and worse from there, as the psicraft scores continue to outstrip the DC required to make the check.

Oh, but wait, there's more. I'm sure the call will go up that the average DM won't make a quarter of the 13 encounters psionic, just because one of the four players in the game is a psion. Even if only one encounter a level is, that's probably an extra power over the course of a single level, with a commiserate savings in research time and XP saved for adding new powers to your list.

And before there's an outcry that the standard game shouldn't have a psionic encounter every level, I'll just nip that in the bud here. According to WOTC, the DM should craft at least one encounter every level that focuses on the class abilities of each character. Therefore, each level should have at least one psionic encounter as part of the character's experience. Psionic-friendly DMs are likely to have more.

Oh, and as for thoughts about the DM throwing encounters with the same powers every time, that's an invalid assumption because that does not address the WOTC directives mentioned above. As you go up in level, the CR of the encounter goes up in level, and if the target is a psion, that means that they have more powers than they did last level, powers that are intended to be used in the 2-3 rounds before the target is dropped,and thus new powers that can be absorbed.

Okay, this presents in great and laborous detail why I think the feat is broken. Most PCs have higher stats and skill totals than I'm proposing, so the number of powers learned will go up even more quickly than I imply above. The character with this feat will learn many, many powers over the life of his career, without spending any XP or time as the rules usually require psions to expend in order to gain additional powers beyond their basics.

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[Drowbane]

Made it Vile with Evil as prereq...

Because I can see how things work. What makes things... tick. Like you.

Sylar's Study [Psionic, Vile]
You can see how the mind works.
Prerequisites: Any Evil, Heal 12 ranks, Psicraft 12 ranks
Benefit: You may attempt to examine the brain of a fallen psionic creature. The target's head and brain must be intact and be no more than 1 hour since its death. If the brain is killed, such as by mind thrust and psychic crush, then it is not considered intact. Spells such as Gentle Repose or a mindflayer's brain canister can prolong the brain's usability, though must be removed from it's suspended state to examine. To recognize a psionic power the being knew, you must be able to examine the brain and succeed on a Psicraft check, DC 25 + power level. Studying a single power or psi-like ability requires 10 minutes of concentration +1 minute per level of the power. Once you have determined the power or psi-like ability the being possessed you can learn it and add it to your list of powers known as long as its no higher a level than you can normally manifest. To learn additional powers requires another session of concentration. Out of these powers learned only 1 may be kept permanently from each brain. You retain knowledge of the remaining powers and the ability to manifest them for 24 hours or until you sleep, whichever comes first.
Special: This counts as the brain being eaten for the purposes of an illithid slayer's Brain Nausea class feature

~~~

Sylar is the "Face of Evil" afterall. Cool feat. I think the BBEG of the next psionic campaign I run will have it. Only one of my players watches Heroes... so should be fun. And when I say fun I mean AWESOME.

 

[szilard]

Craft Wand, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Scribe Scroll.... plus a lot of others ... also incurr an XP cost when used.

That's what I was thinking.

A feat that allows you to gain a potentially-unlimited number of extra powers without an xp cost? That makes no sense to me at all.

Thinking about Sylar and the way that his ability is presented through his horologist background, his ability could even be framed as a Craft feat that focuses upon crafting powers into his own brain.

-Stuart

 

[Nonlethal Force]

This feat lets you gain 1 power, after you...

One power? Unless you are talking about your revised version, perhaps. But if it only gives you one power, I'll take Expanded Knowledge any day. If it gives you the potential for more than one power, then you should say "1 power for each time after you ..."

#1. Find a psionic opponent.

May or may not be difficult. This is totally campaign dependant. In general, I typically find it bad mechanics design to have balance rest in something campaign (or DM) dependant. In my games, this is not the rare occurance you propose that it is. In my games, meeting a psionic character is just as common (if not moreso) than meeting a sorcerer.

#2. Kill it.

Not typically difficult for a party who is determined. Sure, they can run. But in any given CR equivalent encounter, the party should be able to prepare for a character to run and hunt them down and kill them if desired. This has no relevant part in balance.

#3. Butcher it.

This likewise has no relevant part of a balanc discussion. Assuming that we've gotten to #3 assumes that the creature is dead. Butchering it doesn't even require any kind of rolls! You just do it. It happens. No part of balance can be found in this step.

#4. Make a very high skill check.

And, if a character is going to take this feat then they will likely find it useful to make sure they have access to several +10 shards. So, that very high skill check is now only average at best. Sure, a +10 shard is 1,000 gold. But seriously, who wouldn't pay 1,000 gold in this circumstance to gain a new power? And, if we're going to talk about averages we could say that the laws of averages say that for every 2,000 gold spent on shards they should get 1 power. You tell me that 2,000 golld per power isn't a good deal for a wilder or psion!

Just to do the numbers ... the DC set in the OP is 25+power level. So ... let's take this at the basic level of 9th. Assuming that a psion has a modest opening attribute (16), a modest ability enhancing item considering INT is their main casting stat (+4), and they've used their 4th and 8th levels to add to their INT score. None of those are absurd assumptions. That means that the character's INT sits at 22, giving them a +6 modifier. Now, being 9th level they have 12 ranks in psicraft. So, they have a psicraft check of 18 (or higher, because I didn't go for a maximum argument of numebrs here.) The DC for the 5th level power is 25+5 = 30. So, they need to roll a 12 on a d20 to make it. But, throw in a mere 1,000 gold piece +10 shard and they need to roll a 2. If they had any kind of INT buff up, if they were able to be aided by another, started with an 18 instead of a 16, or somehow else able to get a mere 2 more points to their mod, this "very high skill check" is actually a gimmie. You technically wouldn't even have to roll, unless your DM is strict about a natural 1 being an auto-fail for skill checks as well - and not all DMs are. This very high skill check is easily made to not even matter. There is little balancing factor in this part!

And you still don't get to have any power you like. You gotta choose from whatever this guy had, which doesn't require it being something you want.

This has a bit of balance to it. However, the character still gets one. They become more versatile. It may not be on their top 3 list, but it is still power.

This requires much more effort for a higher reward, assuming you find more than one psionic creature.

Again, your concept of balance is so campaign dependant. I like what the above poster had to say about keeping it for your game. You want it in your game, then add it! But if we are going to talk about good feat design from a mechanics perspective which looks at the broad spectrum of game scenarios ... then balancing factors which are campaign specific are just poor design. A psionic character in one of my campaigns could likely use this power an average of 4 to 5 times per level. I love psionics that much, and use them as often as wizards and sorcerers. All of your comments about "if you find one" fall completely flat in games like mine. When designing a feat, you have to take all tables into account - not just your own.

Balance with mechanics, not campaign design. That will get you more positive feedback. As it stands, as per your request, I have gone through your balancing factors and demonstrated that there is little balance from a mechanics perspective. No way would this feat be allowed in my game.

One power for each time this feat is taken - and that power can be swapped with each new psionic encounter that qualifies - now that's balanced mechanically. No longer is the campaign specific quality of "how often psionic encounters happen" in the balancing part. Now, the balance is established by the limit of powers gleaned. It is more flexible than Expanded Knowledge, but there is more investment involved as well.

 

[Arkhandus]

Also, keep in mind how easy it is for a psionic character to jack up his Psicraft and such. Skill Focus +3, Psionic Affinity +2, 20 Intelligence +5. Take Craft Universal Item as the character's 3rd-level feat, the other two as 1st and 6th-level, then take Sylar's Study at 9th-level. Craft a handful of Crystal Shards of Psicraft +10, get 12 ranks of Psicraft by 9th-level, and have a total of +22 or +32 on each Psicraft check to learn a power.

Totally worth it to learn a bunch of new powers for free (just 500 gp and a bit of XP for each +10 Crystal Shard you craft, if you bother with them at all). Multiclass 1 level into Ranger if ya don't feel like playing an Egoist, and you can snatch up 10 or 11 ranks of Heal right there (6 base + 4 or 5 for Intelligence, depending on when ya take the level; preferably at 9th, since your Int wouldn't go up to 20 until after the 8th-level-up). Sure, you'll delay access to new powers for 1 level, but you'll greatly expand your number of powers known after a while.

Now, if your group hardly uses psionics at all in their games, then I frankly don't see why in the world you'd bother with this feat in the first place. It's cool, but the fact that your group doesn't like psionics enough to use it more than once in a blue moon does not make the feat balanced.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Also, keep in mind how easy it is for a psionic character to jack up his Psicraft and such. Skill Focus +3, Psionic Affinity +2, 20 Intelligence +5.

Add to that one of the easiest ones possible, and one that nearly every psion is likely to have ... Synergy: Knowledge(psionics).

So, let's take my earlier numbers, using a 9th level psion:

Begining INT: 16 (+3), boosted to 18 (+4) by the 4th and 8th character level bumps.
Psicraft Ranks: +12
Skill Focus (Psicraft): +3
Psionic Affinity: +2
Headband of Intellect +4: +2
Synergy - Knowledge (Psionics): +2

For a psion with the ability to use this feat to gain powers, all of this stuff would be reasonably standard. As the prior poster said, take Craft Wonderous Item for the ability to make your own shards, and this is powerful.

The numbers above indicate a psicraft check of +25 if I've added correctly. So, we're not even talking about a +10 shard to guarantee success. We're talking about a +5 shard! After all, DC for a 5th level power would be 30. If we are going for a true numbers argument, then that psion starts with an 18 INT and now we're talking about a mere +4 shard!

Throw in a character who can aid another (leadership feat, anyone?), and those shards drop to a +3 and +2 with the respective starting INT scores. At that rate, the chance of success is really so great that with a simple aid another action we're talking about an 85% chance of success without even needing a shard! And I'm sure I left off some things above that could be helpful.

The interesting thing is that as the character grows, chances of success are even better. At level 16 the character can benefit from another point to their ability mod from character level advancement, another point from a more powerful headband, and 7 more ranks in psicraft. That puts a character with a starting INT of 16 (average for a psion) at a psicraft check of +34 using my above numbers. A psion with a starting INT of 18 would be up to a +35.

What that implies is that at 16th level, this psion auto-succeeds with the "very difficult" skill check for any power of 9th level or less! A psion with a starting INT of 18 auto-succeeds with room to spare for a power of level 9! [Granted, they can only take what they can use, so they still can't grab the 9th level power, although by the numebrs they would auto-succeed). What this implies is that by level 16 this character is guaranteed to learn any power that comes his way via the enemy - without even needing a shard! The only balancing factor by this point is that the DM has to be careful at what the psion faces. That's not balance, Vorpal Tribble, that's called handcuffing the DM. I've said it before, and it's now my mantra in this thread. Balance is not acheived in campaign design. Balance is found in mechanics. This feat shows no mechanical balance at all.

No way is the skill check even remotely close to balancing this feat. Hands down, this feat is broken unless the DM makes his/her campaign design balance it so that the feat can't be used that often. From a game mechanics design, it is a poorly written feat that needs campaign design to balance it.