Pathfinder 1E This is why pathfinder has been successful.

[JoeGKushner]

There were no established goal posts.

In the like 4 years of 3e (before 3.5) there was only about a dozen FR books published. I think Pathfinder has the beat in it's first 4 years.

Pathfinder books aren't the same size or format. Generally FR books and Eberron were 160 in a hardcover unless it went up to the next size. Most Pathfinder books are much shorter being in the 32-64-96 range. I think only the original hardcover and revised hardcover have any equivlancy.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Hmmm, I think that there are almost two conversations going on here.

Pathfinder is succeeding because of the adventures and setting - quite possibly true.

3e succeeded because of the rules - also quite possibly true, but with a caveat.

There were two things that I really liked about 3e/3.5 - first was the OGL. Being able to browse the ideas from dozens of companies rather than just one. Most of my favorites were not by WotC. But if I include WotC in with all the others, yeah, rules were important.

Second was Eberron, not the adventures, but the setting material. I really did not like the sound of the setting when it was being described. But after I read the setting book....

The Auld Grump

 

[Celebrim]

Celebrim on the subject:

May 2005

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...lowly-cutting-its-own-throat.html#post2261279
http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...lowly-cutting-its-own-throat.html#post2261397
http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...wly-cutting-its-own-throat-2.html#post2261834

There is a lot more like that scattered around, but I'd have a hard time tracking down the posts.

I'm glad to see Paizo gets it.

 

[Evenglare]

Sure 3.5 was successful. Thing is... if it was so successful then why did they make 4th edition? Why reboot everything? Money grab? Was it really necessary? 4th edition had some fantastic ideas.... but look at it this way. Paizo has shown that if you release quality material , no matter how long the system has been around ,it's still a fantastic system . Paizo has made a lot of money off of pathfinder from the quality of their adventures and world. If Wizards would stop trying to regurgitate a book every month, and slow down, and take your time they might have a loyal fanbase, without the name "Dungeons and Dragons" to brute force your way through the market.

I know Hasbro is probably the reason for pushing rapid releases, it's just not the tabletop way though... They think that D&D is like... monopoly , where you can "reimagine the game" and sell it for a quick buck. Thing is monopoly and most other games take just a night to play. If you are invested in an RPG it could take years, and that's just something Hasbro cant get it's mind around.

 

[Echohawk]

Compare the volume of setting material for Golarion and the the Forgotten Realms. It's a pretty big stretch to say there is more Golarion info out there than was put out in a similar amount of time for 3.x FR.

In the like 4 years of 3e (before 3.5) there was only about a dozen FR books published. I think Pathfinder has the beat in it's first 4 years.

Technically, Pathfinder (the game) hasn't existed for 4 years, since the core rulebook was published in August 2009 (I'm ignoring the beta release), but the Golarion setting has been around since June 2007, so we can still do a fair comparison.

Golarion setting material published between June 2007 and May 2011:
[sblock]Crown of the Kobold King
Hollow's Last Hope
Burnt Offerings
Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale
Seven Swords of Sin
The Skinsaw Murders
Gallery of Evil
The Hook Mountain Massacre
Entombed with the Pharaohs
Fortress of the Stone Giants
Carnival of Tears
Into the Haunted Forest
Sins of the Saviors
Guardians of Dragonfall
Spires of Xin-Shalast
Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide
Hangman's Noose
Crucible of Chaos
Edge of Anarchy
Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer
Seven Days to the Grave
Escape from Old Korvosa
Guide to Korvosa
River into Darkness
The Demon Within
A History of Ashes
Classic Monsters Revisited
Flight of the Red Raven
Guide to Darkmoon Vale
Revenge of the Kobold King
Skeletons of Scarwall
Tower of the Last Baron
Crown of Fangs
Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting
Rise of the Runelords Map Folio
Second Darkness Player’s Guide
Shadow in the Sky
Children of the Void
Curse of the Crimson Throne Map Folio
Elves of Golarion
Gods and Magic
Hungry Are the Dead
The Armageddon Echo
Treasure of Chimera Cove
Endless Night
Into the Darklands
A Memory of Darkness
Guide to Absalom
Osirion, Land of Pharaohs
The Pact Stone Pyramid
Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide
Clash of the Kingslayers
Descent Into Midnight
Howl of the Carrion King
Legacy of Fire Player’s Guide
Second Darkness Map Folio
Blood of Dragonscar
Dragons Revisited
House of the Beast
Dark Markets: A Guide to Katapesh
Taldor, Echoes of Glory
The Jackal's Price
The End of Eternity
The Great Beyond (A Guide to the Multiverse)
Bonus Bestiary
Dungeon Denizens Revisited
Qadira, Gateway to the East
The Impossible Eye
Beyond the Vault of Souls
Seekers of Secrets
The Final Wish
Cheliax, Empire of Devils
Council of Thieves Player's Guide
Crypt of the Everflame
Legacy of Fire Map Folio
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook
The Bastards of Erebus
Princes of Darkness: Book of the Damned Vol. 1
The Sixfold Trial
Cities of Golarion
Dwarves of Golarion
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary
What Lies in Dust
Carrion Hill
Classic Horrors Revisited
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game GM Screen
The Infernal Syndrome
City Map Folio
Masks of the Living God
Mother of Flies
Andoran, Spirit of Liberty
Guide to the River Kingdoms
The Twice-Damned Prince
Council of Thieves Map Folio
Kingmaker Player's Guide
Realm of the Fellnight Queen
Stolen Land
NPC Guide
Rivers Run Red
City of Golden Death
Faction Guide
The Varnhold Vanishing
Adventurer's Armory
Blood for Blood
Classic Treasures Revisited
Gnomes of Golarion
City of Strangers
From Shore to Sea
GameMastery Guide
Heart of the Jungle
Master of the Fallen Fortress
Sargava: The Lost Colony
War of the River Kings
Curse of the Riven Sky
Kingmaker Poster Map Folio
Sound of a Thousand Screams
Advanced Player's Guide
Orcs of Golarion
Serpent's Skull Player's Guide
Soul for the Smuggler's Shiv
Racing to Ruin
Misfit Monsters Redeemed
The City of Seven Spears
The Witchwar Legacy
Inner Sea Primer
The Godsmouth Heresy
Vaults of Madness
Bestiary 2
Halflings of Golarion
Lords of Chaos: Book of the Damned Vol. 2
Lost Cities of Golarion
Serpent's Skull Poster Map Folio
The Thousand Fangs Below
Cult of the Ebon Destroyers
Inner Sea Poster Map Folio
Sanctum of the Serpent God
Carrion Crown Player's Guide
Haunting of Harrowstone
World Guide: The Inner Sea
Tomb of the Iron Medusa
Faiths of Purity
Rule of Fear
Trial of the Beast
Broken Moon
Rival Guide
Ultimate Magic
[/sblock]Forgotten Realms setting material published between June 2001 and May 2005:
[sblock]Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Magic of Faerûn
Lords of Darkness
Dungeon Master's Screen (Forgotten Realms)
Faiths and Pantheons
Silver Marches
City of the Spider Queen
Races of Faerûn
Unapproachable East
Underdark
Player's Guide to Faerûn
Serpent Kingdoms
Shining South
Lost Empires of Faerûn
Champions of Ruin
[/sblock]Totals:
Golarion: 146 products
Forgotten Realms: 15 products

To be fair, the FR hardcovers have more pages than most Pathfinder releases, and my Golarion list includes all the Pathfinder rule-books, which don't all have much setting-specific material. However, eyeballing the amount of shelf space each setting takes up without the Pathfinder rulebooks, Golarion still has nearly twice as much published material as the Forgotten Realms for a similar period of time.

So Crothian is correct here -- it is by no means a stretch to say that there is more Golarion info out there than was put out in a similar amount of time for 3.X FR.

Now if we were comparing Golarion's release pace with the AD&D 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms release pace...

 

[pemerton]

Celebrim on the subject

I can't XP you at the moment, but I read those three posts - good stuff.

I think [MENTION=9225]eyebeams[/MENTION] has argued similar stuff in the past couple of years. I didn't know you'd run the same argument.

My personal view is that this is further evidence that Ryan Dancy was overoptimistic about the value of the OGL - the evidence from Paizo/PF is that if you want to build a shared world of imagination to leverage sales of your core books, and thereby in turn leverage sales of your modules, and back and forth in a virtuous cycle (virtuous for the company at least), then you need to do it yourself in a deliberate way rather than license it out to random third parties.

My other personal contribution to the topic is that 4e is nowhere near as fluff-devoid or shared world devoid as some of its detractors would have it. The first MM, for example, which is often derided as barren, is in fact full of little tidbits here and there. But somehow WotC (i) did a bad job of pitching and packaging (which at least shows poor market research, but possibly deeper failures as well), and (ii) has utterly failed to pick up on this stuff in its modules. When you look at some of the example campaign arcs sketched in books like Underdark and The Plane Above, and then compare them to the utterly pedestrian fiction of the 4e modules, it's a sad thing. And even those 4e modules that do have some interesting ideas tend to kill them stone dead with their detailed scenario design. (Not that 3E-era WotC couldn't do this as well - Bastion of Broken Souls being the example I'm most familiar with.)

 

[Walking Dad]

3e was a very successful game and it didn't focus on adventure or much on setting.

Pathfinder succeeds because of superior management and public relations.
They know how to sell their stuff.

 

[S'mon]

But I'd play their APs if I could do it with the Beginner Box rules. :\ I'm not interested in full Pathfinder - way too fiddly. So the OP quote doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[Jhaelen]

This is why wizards has not had much success. They focus on the rules and not the worlds, settings, and story lines that make this type of hobby great.

Well, without good rules to support them, settings and adventure modules don't sell well. You can easily see this when you look at the offering of system-neutral supplements.

Paizo succeeded because they could use the 3e SRD as a basis for their stuff. If that hadn't been available I very much doubt they'd have been as successful as they are.

 

[Reynard]

Forgotten Realms setting material published between June 2001 and May 2005:

3.5 was a mature rules set by the time Golarion saw publication, so I think it is far more fair to compare the 3.5 publications. This thread shows the massive volume of Eberron material in a 4 year span, for example.

I'm not trying to say Paizo doesn't focus on Golarion, merely that 3E wasn't some desert of adventures and setting material.