Pathfinder 1E This is why pathfinder has been successful.

Also its pretty easy to give your game away for free when someone else already gave it to you for free.

That's an inaccurate statement, IMO -- mainly because maybe 50% of the full body of Pathfinder rules, probably less by now, comes from the d20 SRD. Not only did they do significant changes on the base rules (with community input and playtest) but the Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat comprise more rules work than the Pathfinder Core book at this point. I've seen comments occasionally like this, as if the Pathfinder RPG is just some reprint like Mongoose Pocket Player Handbook or something, but it's not true. It's the whole "Ship of Theseus" thing again.
 

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Sure 3.5 was successful. Thing is... if it was so successful then why did they make 4th edition? Why reboot everything? Money grab? Was it really necessary?

Ryan Dancey has been saying that Hasbro needs a line it keeps evergreen to have a turnover of $50 million. At the end of 3.5 it certainly wasn't doing that. 4e isn't doing that. Paizo isn't doing that. I could be corrected, but I don't think that 4e and Pathfinder combined are doing that.

Pretty much the only chance for 4e to be successful to the standards Hasbro demand (which is a world of difference from it being successful by RPG standards) were if they had the electronic tools working properly and so had massive DDI subscriptions.

If Wizards would stop trying to regurgitate a book every month, and slow down,

They have. And have some seriously nice books - IMO better fluff (as well as better crunch) than anything Paizo's done in some of the recent books. (But then I find Paizo seriously overrated for reasons that would do better on another thread).

I know Hasbro is probably the reason for pushing rapid releases, it's just not the tabletop way though...

It worked for 3.X...
 

I do not think that the game rules themselves are per se without value for a company. After all, they are what makes the game. And only if players like the game, meaning it’s mechanics and how it actually plays, they will spent money on it. The discussions about how 4E plays differently than older versions and how it “does not feel like DnD” proofs my point. So if you have good game rules, you should protect them as best as you can. They form the basis of your success, the soil you can grow flowers on.
And adventures and settings are these flowers in my opinion. I think the OP is right about that. It’s the flowers that make you happy and that create the warm fuzzy feeling of summer (or whatever season you prefer) we all like. Not the soil.
To proof that point we can look at the traditional magazines in 3e times, Dungeon and Dragon. When WotC outsourced the publication to Paizo, they basically gave away the flower seeds. Paizo became the gardener who planted THEIR flower seeds into the soil that was WotC’s 3e. And then Paizo sold the flowers and keeps doing so, because they can still use WotC’s soil because of the OGL. The magazines gave Paizo the chance to let gamers identify DnD with Paizo instead of only WotC.
By now, that soil is not that valuable anymore, because everybody can use it and has enough soil, because more than enough rulebooks have been published.

So you cannot continue to make money off of soil forever. 3.5 proofs that, I think. But you can use it as a fertilizer.
The OGL was designed so that a community could form around DnD as THE major RPG and WotC would sell core rule books, which were their money makers. But isn’t 3.5 proof that WotC was unable to continue making enough money (by their standard) through that system, including the OGL? Because by the time 3.5 came out, there was already enough 3.0 rule material out to last a lifetime. Which proofs that you can only walk a certain distance selling soil. And the OGL did not change much about that, I am afraid.
And that is the reason why Paizo keeps publishing new core books, by which I mean the Advanced Players Guide, etc. I think [MENTION=158]Henry[/MENTION] is right about that. The OGL has turned into the fertilizer for a soil that is Paizo's.

So, if you want to make 50 million dollars, you have to have a good rule system that a lot of people like. And you have to grow pretty flowers, meaning good adventures and settings. And let’s be honest, why should WotC not be able to make good adventures in great settings? Paizo’s stuff is good, but not so übergood that nobody can do better. The online magazines could and should become a big thing in this regard. Especially if WotC wants to make it easy for the GM, who does not have the time to come up with a great story him/herself.

Mike Mearls said:
From a design stand point, I think it’s important that we focus on what tabletop games do well. We want to make sure people can pick up and play D&D with minimum fuss.
Good published adventures by WotC mean just that: You pick them up, read them and play them with less preparation. Minimum fuss. So I think they will be a key to the next edition’s success.
 

I think that rules are important to a successful RPG, but they are only one piece of the puzzle. I suspect that Paizo's bread and butter is really the Adventure Paths, but good adventures and setting material are just one more element of a successful RPG.

We spend a lot of time analyzing what went "wrong" with 4e, and what Paizo did "right", but I really think that the biggest problem has been with splitting the market. This has been hard for Wizards, because it's weakened their sales at a time when their main RPG product is being compared (probably unfairly) to Magic and many unrelated toy products. It's worked well for Paizo, because they've been able to capitalize on the edition wars and their pre-4e strengths to expand and gain respectable sales on what is really just the world's most successful D&D clone. While they have extensively revised the rules, Pathfinder is still fundamentally 3e D&D, and I doubt anyone could prove that the rules are objectively better - perhaps just better tuned to the preferences of people who liked 3e.

We don't have enough evidence to claim what RPGs are actually doing "well" or "poorly", and I'm not sure anyone can even agree what that means. I doubt anyone knows how big the RPG market is at all. However, it seems like 4e and Pathfinder are the top dogs at the moment, and they're both finding different ways to maintain what success they have.

I think the most important thing for a successful RPG, however, is diversified revenue. Wizards noticed that the greatest profitability came from core rulebooks, and rightly or wrongly based their strategy on that. Paizo has always made their money from publishing adventures and optional rules, and their strategy is based on that. But IMO both companies survive because they don't make most of their money from their main revenue stream - Paizo has a successful online store, sells tons of different game aids, and probably sells plenty of material to people who don't play Pathfinder at all (witness the huge number of "4e conversions" of their products floating about). Wizards sells board games, DDI subscriptions, game accessories, and so on, and again, it is likely that many of their customers don't play any version of D&D.

RPGs aren't profitable products, by most any standard, mainly because they are infinitely replayable. It's hard to imagine a less expensive social hobby. Fundamentally, I think that the only way to make money in RPGs is to sell things that aren't RPGs and hope that those other things make you enough money to keep on publishing RPGs.
 

Ryan Dancey has been saying that Hasbro needs a line it keeps evergreen to have a turnover of $50 million. [...]

Pretty much the only chance for 4e to be successful to the standards Hasbro demand (which is a world of difference from it being successful by RPG standards) were if they had the electronic tools working properly and so had massive DDI subscriptions.
Well, we know strongly suspect that there are at least 67356 DDI subscribers. Based on the lowest month pricing (US$5.95), that's a minimum turnover of nearly $5 million per year. If WotC can maintain those subscribers (by keeping the 4e tools in place indefinitely) and grow those numbers by rolling out some slick tools for 5e, a turnover of $50 across all D&D products (including DDI subscriptions, print RPG products, miniatures, novels, board games, and licensed lines like the IDW comics and GF9 accessories) does not seem like an impossible goal to me.

And of course, the actual number of DDI subscribers might already be a lot higher than 67356 -- that figure is based on the number of subscribers who are also members of the WotC community forums, and hence show up as members of the D&D Insider group within the community. Folks who subscribe to DDI but aren't registered on the forums aren't included in that figure. Given that, I'd be surprised if DDI wasn't pulling in a fairly significant chunk of $50 million per year already.
 

3.5 was a mature rules set by the time Golarion saw publication, so I think it is far more fair to compare the 3.5 publications. This thread shows the massive volume of Eberron material in a 4 year span, for example.
Yeah, I'm reasonably familiar with that list of Eberron material, since I compiled it :p. A large chunk of that list is the novels and Mark of Heroes/Xendrik Expedition adventures though. If you count just the over-the-counter RPG products, the total for Eberron over four years is only 23 titles; a bit more than the FR had in four years, but still not quite the same level as Golarion. (And if you want to count the MoH/XE material, then we need to also count the Pathfinder Society modules, which will keep Golarion firmly in the lead.)

I'm not trying to say Paizo doesn't focus on Golarion, merely that 3E wasn't some desert of adventures and setting material.
I agree with you completely on that. If you include the licensed Dragonlance, Ravenloft, and Kingdoms of Kalamar product lines, there were nearly as many setting-specific releases for 3e as there were non-setting-specific titles. And many of the "rulebooks" contained a significant amount of implied Greyhawk setting material too.
 

Yeah, I'm reasonably familiar with that list of Eberron material, since I compiled it :p. A large chunk of that list is the novels and Mark of Heroes/Xendrik Expedition adventures though. If you count just the over-the-counter RPG products, the total for Eberron over four years is only 23 titles; a bit more than the FR had in four years, but still not quite the same level as Golarion. (And if you want to count the MoH/XE material, then we need to also count the Pathfinder Society modules, which will keep Golarion firmly in the lead.)

Well, let's not forget the very long list of Dragon articles and Dungeon adventures, not to mention the "X in Eberron" segements of later MMs. Anyone have time to do a page count comparison? ;)

The point is not to engage in a measuring contest -- I'm not even particularly an Eberron fan, as I like my fantasy more Conan-esque -- but to refute Crothian's claim.
 

Well, let's not forget the very long list of Dragon articles and Dungeon adventures, not to mention the "X in Eberron" segements of later MMs. Anyone have time to do a page count comparison? ;)

The point is not to engage in a measuring contest -- I'm not even particularly an Eberron fan, as I like my fantasy more Conan-esque -- but to refute Crothian's claim.

Not my claim, I didn't start this mess (thread).

As I've said before we can't count the Dungeon and Dragon magazines because they were not done by Wizards, they are third party. We can't compare two companies and include all the smaller ones that feed off of their crumbs. Also, the later MM's don't matter because Pathfinder has only existed for a few years so we can't compare all of 3e to the much smaller time frame Pathfinder existed.

If you want to compare page counts of printed books and also page counts of printed adventures and see what the two companies produced or even post word counts that would be fine. But otherwise this particular discussion is just going round and round and frankly is starting to bore me. :D
 



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