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This mentality needs to die

Great answer and I'd have to agree on principle that everything's subjective.
Thanks, but I would not agree that "everything" is subjective.

However, WOW is a resource-based, combat-orientated game, which is largely defined by the game's designers. It, therefore, incorporates features of roleplaying but does not, in my opinion, offer a roleplaying game where players develop open-ended characters and contexts drawn largely from their own imaginations.
Again, the objective data remains that WOW players are fully in the role of their character. I think the distinction here is that while I would agree with you that WOW is not a very *good* roleplaying game, a *good* roleplaying game is not a prerequisite for players to role play*.

Even the *good* part is subjective.
A bad DM can easily impose the exact same limitations on a game of D&D that you cite for WOW. And while that makes it quite reasonable that you may look for a better DM, it in no way makes D&D not an RPG, nor does it prevent players role playing within this substandard condition.



* - For the record, I'm not commenting on the overall quality of WOW. I am only commenting on it as an RPG compared to PnP. I played WOW for two years and it was much fun. Not looking to slam WOW or hijack into that.
 

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Yeah, nedjer, I think you're starting to stray a bit into "badwrongfunism" with that sweeping generalization. Are you saying that Rogue Trader is less of a roleplaying game than Traveller?

Rogue Trader is very much a RPG but the game places play in a 'tight' setting, i.e. Gross Emperor, Inquisitors, bolters, . . . The game is very open to roleplaying with that setting. However, part of the players' imaginative input is handed off to the setting. That's not necessarily bad, it may fit exactly the role you wish to play.

Traveller players start out with less source/ setting material and less specific roles, so often paint their own backdrops and structures. You can get the same gameplay with either system but they don't start from the same default.
 

I don't consider WOW to be remotely the same kind of "roleplaying" that I consider my home D&D game to be. But WOW is certainly a roleplaying game. You may subjectively disagree, but this is subjective. :)

In D&D, I enjoy *being* a character in a fantastic setting. I believe my D&D experience matches your limited definition of roleplaying.

When I was playing WOW (clean and sober 7 months), I enjoyed the sense of being in the person of a fantastic and powerful avatar. It isn't the same thing at all. But it is most absolutely roleplaying, just a different degree of roleplaying.

I've been playing WoW way, way, too long. My main character has just under 144 days played. For those who don't play, that's 144 entire 24 hour periods. I have 2 other level 80s and various other characters in the 60s and 70s. Yes, I need help. That said, I really don't consider WoW an rpg. There's not a lot of role playing involved. In WoW, we call each other by our character's names, but that's about the extent of the role playing. Otherwise, it's just a tactical video game. A fun game, but hardly an rpg imo.
 

I've been playing WoW way, way, too long. My main character has just under 144 days played. For those who don't play, that's 144 entire 24 hour periods. I have 2 other level 80s and various other characters in the 60s and 70s. Yes, I need help. That said, I really don't consider WoW an rpg. There's not a lot of role playing involved. In WoW, we call each other by our character's names, but that's about the extent of the role playing. Otherwise, it's just a tactical video game. A fun game, but hardly an rpg imo.


I think some people consider the playing out of those tactics as roleplaying because they, themselves, are not personally doing it but rather through a character/avatar. I would disagree but I understand the position.
 

Again, the objective data remains that WOW players are fully in the role of their character. I think the distinction here is that while I would agree with you that WOW is not a very *good* roleplaying game, a *good* roleplaying game is not a prerequisite for players to role play*.

Even the *good* part is subjective.
A bad DM can easily impose the exact same limitations on a game of D&D that you cite for WOW. And while that makes it quite reasonable that you may look for a better DM, it in no way makes D&D not an RPG, nor does it prevent players role playing within this substandard condition.

It's the objective data that demonstrates the limitations of WoW in terms of roleplaying. The skills and 'fun' connect to cognitive activities and rewards based on a 'slay and shop' model. The limited roles available are inherently combative and geared towards material outcomes. Essentially, the game's settings, rewards and mechanics are all structured towards making you play the role of a first rate consumer.

D&D in all versions, and most other tabletop systems, are streets ahead in terms of the options for open-ended, imaginative play and connecting to cognitive activities and rewards that go beyond a focus on combat, treasure, spend; combat, treasure, spend.

As a result, for me, roleplaying ideally includes a blend of many roleplaying features which come together to make the sum more than the parts. A heavy emphasis on slaying monsters in any RPG is, therefore, taking play away from the full range of skills and fun roleplaying can offer.
 

As a result, for me, roleplaying ideally includes a blend of many roleplaying features which come together to make the sum more than the parts. A heavy emphasis on slaying monsters in any RPG is, therefore, taking play away from the full range of skills and fun roleplaying can offer.
Well said, but I'm going to at least partly disagree.

Slaying monsters is often the heavy emphasis during any adventure, which is just fine.

*Why* you're slaying the monsters is often the heavy emphasis between adventures; that's where the role-play comes in, which is also just fine.

Both are as much fun as you want to make them.

Lanefan
 

@nedjer

Sure, and the converse is also true, that a heavy focus on non-combat takes away from the the full range of skills and fun that combat offers. I'm not sure your terminology is very useful, either, because it seems quite true that something can be both a role-playing game and a tactical war game. Namely, well, Dungeons and Dragons. This is especially true for Dungeons and Dragons because it identifies itself as a role-playing game and puts a fair amount of focus on the roleplaying aspect of the game.

So, roleplaying game and tactical wargame should not be on a continuum. Maybe something like: non-combat drama game versus tactical wargame. At any one time you can either be doing something combat related or non-combat related, even within seconds of eachother. "I roll for attack, screaming 'You shall not pass'" But, the entire time you are playing the role of something or someone, thus, roleplaying.

Dictionary.com said:
Role-play·ing /ˈroʊlˌpleɪ
thinsp.png
ɪŋ/ Show Spelled[rohl-pley-ing] Show IPA
–noun1. a method of instruction or psychotherapy aimed at changing attitudes and behavior, in which participants act out designatedroles relevant to real-life situations.
2. the modifying of a person's behavior to accord with a desired personal image, as to impress others or conform to a particularenvironment.
 

Rogue Trader is very much a RPG but the game places play in a 'tight' setting, i.e. Gross Emperor, Inquisitors, bolters, . . . The game is very open to roleplaying with that setting. However, part of the players' imaginative input is handed off to the setting. That's not necessarily bad, it may fit exactly the role you wish to play.

Traveller players start out with less source/ setting material and less specific roles, so often paint their own backdrops and structures. You can get the same gameplay with either system but they don't start from the same default.

Hang on a second though. Are you saying that someone playing in a heavily defined setting is less capable of role playing than someone who plays in a less defined setting?

Wouldn't that mean that everyone who plays Forgotten Realms is no longer role playing? Is there a setting out there that's as heavily defined as FR? Thousands and thousands of pages of setting info, that's about as well defined a setting as you can get.

Sure, it might not fit the role you want to play, but, that's also not a requirement for role playing. If I'm playing the Avalon Hill 007 game, I'm GOING to be an MI6 agent. If I don't want to be, I should play another game. Or, if I'm playing Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, I'm going to play an anthropomorphic animal.

Does that mean these games are somehow less roleplaying?

Isn't that like saying free verse is somehow "more poetry" than a sonnet?
 

Being or feeling caged in by mechanics is terrible, because it limits the very reason tabletop games are awesome - you aren't limited to pre-programmed scenarios, you can jump around on your own thing.

<snip>

I don't think this is an X Edition Only thing, but getting caught in rule minutia and closing the box around is a problem.
Beyond shooting off your powers to resolve a given situation, the only other mechanical options they gave us are: magic items (which are now just a subset of your power deck), and skill checks (which involve either a very vanilla d20 roll on a chart for a few set tasks; or else a process of free-associating a particular function out of the broadly defined skills, "Mother May I" negotiation with the DM, and page 42...). Rituals only count if we restrict the "obstacle" to something with a longer time frame, and in any case don't really change the "spellbook" nature of 4e PC abilities (i.e. if you know you have 5+ minutes to solve the problem, you go from flipping through your power deck to flipping through your list of known rituals).
There is a modern approach to RPG design that tries to straddle the divide between rules and "Mother may I", by giving the PCs broadly defined, open-ended capabilities and by giving the GM sound rules advice on how to set difficulties for conflict resolution that will (i) fit well with the PCs' capabilties and (ii) produce an outcome that is reasonably satisfying for the players at the table, both in gameplay and narrative terms.

Probably the poster-child for this sort of design is HeroQuest. But D&D 4e also has a go at it, via the rules on p 42 of the DMG and the (not ideally implemented, but nevertheless there) Skill Challenge mechanics.

I have two players in a group of 5 - one playing a Wizard, the other a CHA Paladin - who use p 42 on average probably once each per session. They have done things like cleansed altars of dark gods, dispelled zones of darkness created by enemies, and prayed for boons from their gods (both in combat and out of combat). I normally resolve these things by staking some damage on a skill check failure against some benefit (clearing the zone, getting combat advantage) on a skill check success. In yesterday's session the Wizard's player initiated an impromptue Skill Challenge that invovled modifying a Delay Affliction ritual so that it would lift the binding placed on the soul of a just-defeated vampire, ensuring that the soul went straight to the Shadowfell rather than lingering to cause more suffering in the mortal world.

By the standards of mainstream fantasy RPGs, I think 4e gives reasonable support for this sort of thing - certainly better than B/X D&D, for example, which has only a brief discussion of assigning a percentage chance for a PC to jump up and grab a lever; or AD&D, which I don't recall having an account of how to resolve ad hoc actions at all. (Remember that better here means not just mechanically more robust, but also contributing in a fun way to the gameplay and to the story. This is part of the strength of the Skill Challenge mechanic.)

However, our rule sets have become increasingly like videogames to the point where I've seen GMs unpack a suitcase full of rule books and spend most of the game inside them.

<snip>

You would think, hope, tabletop players would recognise this and opt for/ demand rule sets that encouraged novelty and roleplaying but we're dragged towards the videogame model and the 'DRM' that goes with it.
I think 4e goes some way towards this, as explained above.

Bingo - and that's the problem I'm finding the more and more I run 4e. It becomes about "but I have a card that does this" rather than, "Wouldn't it be cool if I tried this action that's vaguely justified by this elaborate game of pretend we play?"
I think that 4e supports "wouldn't it be cool", as explained above.
 

To be 100% honest, a given player's experience with a system, any system, will depend FAR more on the guy behind the GM's screen than any ruleset. The idea that you have to bring a suitcase full of books to the game is a GM thing, not a system thing. That the system provides the books, does not necessarily mean that those books be used.

Heck, 2e had FAR more supplements than WOTC 3e and 3.5 did. And, a lot of those supplements were pretty crunch heavy, not just setting guides. Does that mean that 2e is the closest D&D has come to the "video game model and the DRM that goes with it"?
 

Into the Woods

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