[Those who like 4ed] What has been lost?

[billd91]

I think 4e has become too forgiving of dump statting. I think allowing players to pick their stats for defense bonuses is kind of nice, but I do believe it allows too much to be lost in stat parity. For example, while I can use either Dex or Int for my reflex defense, unless my powers specifically include Intelligence, Dex is almost always better because it adds to skills that are used more often in your typical dungeon crawl and adds to my initiative and my base ranged attacks. As a rogue, I can pretty much dump Intelligence without a second thought. I would have preferred Int retain the trained skill bonus that it had in 3.x. Then it would be a more real trade-off.

I also think that too many class focuses don't really line up with each other in stat-dumpability. An artful dodger seems to have an easier time than a brutal scoundrel with dumping 3 stats to the scoundrel's 2.

 

[weem]

I love 4e - been having a blast.

With that said, to answer your question...

What has been lost is The Mystery.

I have explained this to a few people as such...

Before 3e (so I guess I am saying the mystery was lost then) if a player swung his hammer and i said, "it stops inches from the troll and slams into some force, at which point your hammer disappears", the player would respond with something like "whoa, crazy - I wonder what that was about"... but in 4e, the response is "umm, what? there is no power that takes my weapon away".

Of course as a DM I can say, "well, it does" and sure, my player will say, "oh, ok, I get it, cool!" but the mystery still gone - it is very clear I stepped in and applied something outside of the rules to adjust something for the sake of the story.

I think, at least in my experience, this was easier back in the day because there were simply so much info out there with rules etc that no one could possibly know it all (well), and so these things would get chalked up to "well, i haven't read everything, so what's happening here is something i have not seen yet" - whereas 4e is very clear and puts so much of it in the hands of the player that it is really obvious when the DM steps outside the box. Again, this is in my experience. I know there are players out there who (back then) knew it inside and out and could call a DM on any of those things - I just never saw it personally.

My brother summed it up once, as we were in agreement, by saying he felt 4e "took away his creative license". It doesn't mean he doesn't like the system (he is running a 4e campaign and having a blast), but that the mystery is what he felt was missing as well.

With that said, if killing the mystery (as I apply meaning to this term here) was required in order to achieve the balance that 4e has, that's fine and I'm on board - balance is one of my favorite things about 4e and so I will give up some of that mystery. As it stands, I tend to start my 4e campaigns with the disclaimer "this campaign is more about the story than the rules - if you see something occur that might fall outside the rules, please keep that in mind" etc.

Again, all of this is from my own experiences - Myself and others who played with me back in those early editions were pretty inexperienced. It could be that if we were more experienced, we might have known all the rules much better (and recall them all easier) - and we could have felt the same then as we do now with regards to a lack of mystery - but I'm not sure.

 

[Halivar]

Before 3e (so I guess I am saying the mystery was lost then) if a player swung his hammer and i said, "it stops inches from the troll and slams into some force, at which point your hammer disappears", the player would respond with something like "whoa, crazy - I wonder what that was about"... but in 4e, the response is "umm, what? there is no power that takes my weapon away".

I've never run into this, although that may be because my players know I only run custom-built monsters. It has it if I say it has it.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I miss the ability to take a new book and read it from cover to cover.

I plan on just paying for subs to DDI and gaining access to all the rules that way rather than buying books to hold onto.

I like 4e. I like 3e. Heck, I like all the e's. I still pull non-4e books from my shelf if I feel like sitting down and reading something entertaining to spark my creativity.

DS

 

[Kannik]

Before 3e (so I guess I am saying the mystery was lost then) if a player swung his hammer and i said, "it stops inches from the troll and slams into some force, at which point your hammer disappears", the player would respond with something like "whoa, crazy - I wonder what that was about"... but in 4e, the response is "umm, what? there is no power that takes my weapon away".

Ditto here, though I've found it has a lot to do with the playing group. I think the strict codefying and expansion of the rules to cover many options opened the gate for some players/groups to start thinking only in those codified ways. In this way I think 4e has actually HELPED the situation, returning the some of the DM Fiat to the game (with Page 42, monsters that follow different rules from the players, rituals that can have very specific yet varied effects, etc) and I got the impression even from reading the new DMG that there’s a push towards allowing and embracing that kind of mystery.

Time will tell if the currently ‘non-wonder/mystery’ group I play with will let go and let the surprise back in...

Kannik

 

[ExploderWizard]

I agree with a lot of items that have been mentined to a lesser or greater extent. The one thing that has cropped up recently for me in my fairly new 4E campaign is the difficulty of actually implementing house rules that have an impact on the character sheet.

I know that we CAN certainly use whatever we want in theory. When 4E first came out we created all characters by hand and realized what pain it was to remember all the bonuses, what applied to which powers, etc. The CB is awesome but the support for integrating house rules into nuts & bolts calculations isn't there. I really wanted to create custom magic items like I always do for my games but if all bonuses from them have to be tacked on by hand to every power they affect it renders the CB next to useless.
I am irritated that a D&D character is so software dependent and campaign creativity has to take a back seat to practicallity.

 

[Gothmog]

The two major things I miss from earlier editions of D&D are:

1) Lack of long-term spells/effects. I've started using the disease condition track to keep track of curses, etc- but having something like long-term charm effects or other weirdness would be cool.

2) Magic items feel fairly non-magical. To solve this problem, I've started giving every magic item an at-will, encounter, and daily power. It helps to bring back some of the mystery and "magic" of magic items, and so far the players seem to like it.

Other than those two things, 4e has been an absolute blessing to me and my groups. For us, the mystery that was in AD&D when we started gaming is back, because monsters and PCs use different sets and types of abilities, so we never know what to expect. A creative DM or player can really reskin anything in 4e to do exactly what they want.

 

[weem]

I agree with a lot of items that have been mentined to a lesser or greater extent. The one thing that has cropped up recently for me in my fairly new 4E campaign is the difficulty of actually implementing house rules that have an impact on the character sheet.

I know that we CAN certainly use whatever we want in theory. When 4E first came out we created all characters by hand and realized what pain it was to remember all the bonuses, what applied to which powers, etc. The CB is awesome but the support for integrating house rules into nuts & bolts calculations isn't there. I really wanted to create custom magic items like I always do for my games but if all bonuses from them have to be tacked on by hand to every power they affect it renders the CB next to useless.
I am irritated that a D&D character is so software dependent and campaign creativity has to take a back seat to practicallity.

A friend of mine (who runs a 4e campaign right now that I play in) had this same issue. He said it is "the one thing" that bugs him the most about 4e - he loves to customize everything.

 

[ExploderWizard]

A friend of mine (who runs a 4e campaign right now that I play in) had this same issue. He said it is "the one thing" that bugs him the most about 4e - he loves to customize everything.

The thing is, on my (the DM) side of things everything is great! The monster builder lets me crank out exactly the output I want. I would like the same functionality in the CB.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Nothing. Because if I wanted any of that other stuff that people mentioned, I'd just play those other games that had them.