[Those who like 4ed] What has been lost?

[unan oranis]

Chaos.

From rolling up stats to no instant-kills; the game has gone in more of a balanced direction and in some ways is less dangerous/thrilling.

This was done on purpose with the intent that the final fun factor would be higher with the "no fun" aspects taken out (rolling crappy stats for example).

I wouldn't change the official recipe, though for my own campaign I've put the chaos back in with wild surge tables and stuff.

What I really like about the perfect balance way is that I now have a "speedometer" baseline that I can compare to whatever stats or treasures my players characters currently possess... so if you want you can have the old school chaos WITH accurate tools.

 

[Dausuul]

Nothing. Because if I wanted any of that other stuff that people mentioned, I'd just play those other games that had them.

Those other games have problems of their own. I like 4E better, but that doesn't mean there aren't things I'd like to see return.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I miss having all the rules in books. DDI's "ddi exclusive content" really annoys me, especially when they devote so much time on their free stuff to it, yacking about assassins and the like.

 

[Mercurius]

On a related note, I miss some of the non-combat-focused magic. Utilities and rituals are almost there, but I'd like to see more non-combat utilities that are both useful and evoke some of the feel of magic of editions past.

This might be my number one complaint with 4ed. I've thought about adding a house rule that allows relatively instantaneous ritual casting if the caster studied it during a previous extended rest. Thus rituals would effectively be like Vancian spells; this rule would kill two birds with one stone, the other being the lack of the idiosyncratic Vancian system which, while being a pain in the ass overall, is still missed for nostalgia's sake.

I love 4e - been having a blast.

With that said, to answer your question...

What has been lost is The Mystery.

Out of curiosity, how old are you? The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if this lost mystery corresponds with the maturation process, that the mystery you speak of existed more in your youth and dwindled as you "grew up." I have observed that a lot of what long-time gamers feel they have lost in the Good Olde Days and try to rekindle in some way or another (the "Old School Renaissance," perhaps) or by trying to find a different, more "adult" approach to gaming (iow, not D&D) primarily has to do with a change in them, not in the games they play. Such a thing as mystery shouldn't rely upon the game one plays, but how one plays it (and who one plays with, primarily the GM).

Certainly the game one plays (or the rule set or edition of the game, ahem) does impact the "soft" elements of one's experience such as story, characterization, etc. But it shouldn't dictate it. In other words, the Mystery should leak through into whatever game you are playing if you and your fellow gamers make room for it. This is not to say that you are playing "wrongly" but that maybe an internal shift in your approach might bring this about rather than a change in venue, so to speak.

If nothing else I am saying: Don't be satisfied with playing without the Mystery! Just find a way to recapture, to be open to it. The "internal shift" might just be a slight thing, but have huge ramifications. For me it had to do with accepting--and embracing--the fact that I (in my mid-30s) am a perennial Big Kid and will always love RPGs and fantasy in general; when I accepted this it opened it up for me into something more magical, more mysterious, even than when I was young.

But I'm jacking my own thread, here

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Simulation - I miss it, prefer it was still in the game, but have come to accept that 4e just went in the other direction.
Mystery - Basically what Weem said. The problem with transparency in 4e and universal laws in 3e that when you have 6 DMs in your group, what you do is judged as following the rules or not following the rules: the mystery has gone. Mercurius, your point is cogent but I believe the age-thing just amplifies the effect.
Dungeon/Dragon in Print - Yeah, love DDI but still miss getting these from the newsagent.
A Believable Economy - Or wait up, did D&D ever have this to lose it? Change that to a semi-believable economy then.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Dausuul]

For me, 4E has done a lot to revive the Mystery. To my mind 3E was the real Mystery-killing edition - what with the standardization of rules for PCs and monsters, and the crushing weight of all-encompassing mechanics.

4E has not solved everything. The game still tends to push people into "in-the-box" thinking, relying on character powers instead of player ingenuity; and the game still feels cramped and limited next to the sweeping visions (and admittedly shoddy executions) of TSR-era D&D. But it's better than 3E was and I have hopes that it will get better still.

The one place in 4E where the Mystery is really dead for me is magic items. 4E magic items are crap and the game economy is beyond ludicrous. More and more I'm looking to the DMG2 option of scrapping them entirely.

 

[weem]

Out of curiosity, how old are you? The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if this lost mystery corresponds with the maturation process, that the mystery you speak of existed more in your youth and dwindled as you "grew up." I have observed that a lot of what long-time gamers feel they have lost in the Good Olde Days and try to rekindle in some way or another (the "Old School Renaissance," perhaps) or by trying to find a different, more "adult" approach to gaming (iow, not D&D) primarily has to do with a change in them, not in the games they play. Such a thing as mystery shouldn't rely upon the game one plays, but how one plays it (and who one plays with, primarily the GM).

Certainly the game one plays (or the rule set or edition of the game, ahem) does impact the "soft" elements of one's experience such as story, characterization, etc. But it shouldn't dictate it. In other words, the Mystery should leak through into whatever game you are playing if you and your fellow gamers make room for it. This is not to say that you are playing "wrongly" but that maybe an internal shift in your approach might bring this about rather than a change in venue, so to speak.

If nothing else I am saying: Don't be satisfied with playing without the Mystery! Just find a way to recapture, to be open to it. The "internal shift" might just be a slight thing, but have huge ramifications. For me it had to do with accepting--and embracing--the fact that I (in my mid-30s) am a perennial Big Kid and will always love RPGs and fantasy in general; when I accepted this it opened it up for me into something more magical, more mysterious, even than when I was young.

But I'm jacking my own thread, here

I will be 33 in DEC.

But your phrasing of the last portion leads me to believe I should have called it "Suspension of Disbelief" rather than "Mystery" as that is what I was referring to. I mean, I'm right there with ya - I _am_ a big kid, and also believe I will always be into RPG's and Fantasy in general. I am a very creative person, have tons of ideas, run multiple campaigns and have a BLAST But, with 4e the game can come to a (almost) stop in some cases when the players' attention is drawn to activities of mine that occur outside the scope of the rules - they want to be sure I intend to go there and didn't simply get something wrong...

Player: "Oh, can he do that?"
DM: "He just did"
Player: "Ahhh, sorry, go ahead"

etc


With that said, my players are great and as I said, they know story comes first - but that doesn't mean it's not noticed when it comes up

 

[avin]

Lots of disbelief suspension were killed by healing surges.

The game was pushed on a more artificial direction.

 

[weem]

For me, 4E has done a lot to revive the Mystery. To my mind 3E was the real Mystery-killing edition - what with the standardization of rules for PCs and monsters, and the crushing weight of all-encompassing mechanics.

Yea, I mention in my original post that I felt this started with 3e (by saying "before 3e").

Also in my original, I mentioned that this could simply be a case of the "mystery" thriving back then because of it's ability to hide in the mess of rules. In that case, I think 3e was a little better because - for me at least, and as you mention, the "crushing weight of all-encompassing mechanics" existed from which any number of things I do (as a DM) could have come from any number of sources, or problems, or burdens with the rules - it would be a little harder for a player to say "wait, that can't happen as per rules"... with 4e, that is now very easy for a player to call out, even a relatively new player - and really I think it speaks to the strength of 4e in clarifying (simplfying?) the rules and balancing things. But with that, as mentioned, it becomes VERY apparent any time I step outside of the rules, or even dangle my toe over it

Your experience may vary of course, as I have said, hehe.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

This might be my number one complaint with 4ed. I've thought about adding a house rule that allows relatively instantaneous ritual casting if the caster studied it during a previous extended rest. Thus rituals would effectively be like Vancian spells; this rule would kill two birds with one stone, the other being the lack of the idiosyncratic Vancian system which, while being a pain in the ass overall, is still missed for nostalgia's sake.

I have been thinking of something similar but more along they cast the ritual but not completly and essentily create a charged item that they can use later. Still I am not sure I would want a single round casting time though.