D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

[thecasualoblivion]

And SoDs, of course. In 5e, fast combats can make slipping in any sort of contribution a challenge when you're in with other optimized characters, but at least SoDs don't make damage moot - most formerly SoD spells now have a hp threshold, so pounding an enemy down to that threshold is useful. But, outside of combats where you outnumber the enemy and focus fire, DPR becomes less significant, AEs and control matter more in larger combats, and, of course, 5e is back to spell slots being useable for either combat or non-combat applications, just with greater flexibility than in 3e.

SoDs of course, but these tend to be daily resources, resources you have less of for the first few levels, and don't really require much system mastery beyond picking the right spells. DPR can take a little bit more work. Most of the weapon using classes can pursue DPR more or less by default. Warlock has Agonizing Blast and Hex as a baseline and you can put bigger spells and SoD on top of that. Sorcerer and Lore Bard can dip two levels of Warlock for that same baseline, and while they won't get as much out of Hex they have more spellcasting firepower. A Valor Bard can take a small sacrifice in SoD effectiveness to take 2 levels of Paladin and be a smite machine. A Moon Druid deals potentially good DPR at certain level thresholds. Weapon using Clerics can do some interesting things with the Shilleleagh and Booming Blade Cantrips. Wizard is kind of left out, but they have the deepest spell list. DPR is something almost everybody can do in 5E, often at little cost.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I wasn't talking about the class in general, just my approach to it. The Barbarian I built had 16 Con, 14 Dex at level 1 and I had no intention ever of improving his defenses, going for max offense instead. Wearing medium armor(after I can afford it) and no shield, not being bear totem, and granting the enemy advantage to attack me at every opportunity, I'm really not that sturdy, not so I can soak 3+ enemies turn after turn.

See and now is where we almost switch roles!

Building the barbarian that way isn't going to maximize his durability, which seems to be the class's main schtick. Like you, I wouldn't worry about improving his AC so much, but I would try to improve his ability to take a hit...in other words HP. I'd probably also go with the bear totem to enhance his resilience, but I wouldn't say it's absolutely necessary.

Also, maybe a little more restrained use of the reckless attack option...if there are three enemies surrounding you, the benefit you gain from it is potentially outweighed by the drawback, unless you can definitely eliminate one of the foes, or unless they are hitting you very easily anyway, but you're not hitting them easily. In such a case I'd also try to make sure I only used the reckless attack when raging so that when I got hit (which is almost a certainty) I'm halving the damage that enemy puts out.

And don't get me wrong...I don't think there's really anything wrong with the way you built that barbarian, or with the way you played him. I just don't know if that would be the build and playstyke that gave you the most fun and satisfaction. But my analysis is very brief and based on the limited anecdotal evidence I get from your comments, so I could be way off.

Ultimately, I don't know if it's comparison to expectations based on prior editions, or if your opinions are based only on 5E in and of itself.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

See and now is where we almost switch roles!

Building the barbarian that way isn't going to maximize his durability, which seems to be the class's main schtick. Like you, I wouldn't worry about improving his AC so much, but I would try to improve his ability to take a hit...in other words HP. I'd probably also go with the bear totem to enhance his resilience, but I wouldn't say it's absolutely necessary.

Also, maybe a little more restrained use of the reckless attack option...if there are three enemies surrounding you, the benefit you gain from it is potentially outweighed by the drawback, unless you can definitely eliminate one of the foes, or unless they are hitting you very easily anyway, but you're not hitting them easily. In such a case I'd also try to make sure I only used the reckless attack when raging so that when I got hit (which is almost a certainty) I'm halving the damage that enemy puts out.

And don't get me wrong...I don't think there's really anything wrong with the way you built that barbarian, or with the way you played him. I just don't know if that would be the build and playstyke that gave you the most fun and satisfaction. But my analysis is very brief and based on the limited anecdotal evidence I get from your comments, so I could be way off.

Ultimately, I don't know if it's comparison to expectations based on prior editions, or if your opinions are based only on 5E in and of itself.

Let me describe my Barbarian plan:

16 Str and Con, 14 Dex, Variant Human with Polearm Master feat and a Halberd
At level 3 I'm taking Eagle Totem
At levels 4 and 8 I'm taking +2 Str and Great Weapon Master, but I'm not sure in which order.

As I've played a session with this DM and observed several more, I know that he uses a battlemap and has a thing for using large maps for combat. Eagle Totem's bonus action dash gives me a fair amount of mobility, which combined with attacking at reach with the Halberd makes for a hit and run Barbarian, which can also set up more opportunities for Polearm Master reaction attacks. I plan on avoiding attacking the center of the enemy formation at all costs, and to focus either on single enemies on the edges, or running past the front line and attacking the mages/archers in the back. Eagle totem while raging also lets me provoke opportunity attacks without caring about the result to a large extent, and using reckless attack every turn while raging is good offensively and gives monsters an incentive to chase me. In the game I've played at this table, with a Barbarian, I was able to consistently do just that. Polearm Master and Eagle Totem both use the bonus action, which gives me a tactical choice between mobility and extra damage I need to make. Great Weapon Master while reckless attacking seems like a great fit, and I don't see how it doesn't work with the bonus action attack with Polearm Master, but I'm going to wait on three levels of attacking with advantage to get a feel on accuracy before I decide to take it at level 4 or not. The Barbarian's greater survivability would be used by me to be able to take greater risks, and to be possibly a lesser burden on the the healers(if any).

 

[The Lord of Time]

Surrender, man. It's impossible to discuss on 5e in this forum. Too many fanboys that refuse to see your arguments and live in their magical past of 1-2e.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Surrender, man. It's impossible to discuss on 5e in this forum. Too many fanboys that refuse to see your arguments and live in their magical past of 1-2e.

So rather than address counter arguments, or provide reasons to support your position, you resort to childish personal attacks? I'm not a mod of course, but you're not off to a very good start to this forum. I would suggest that there are plenty of people here who have criticized 5e and no one gets upset because they've used reasoned arguments, so you'd probably be better served to use those, rather than the response you gave.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Let me describe my Barbarian plan:

16 Str and Con, 14 Dex, Variant Human with Polearm Master feat and a Halberd
At level 3 I'm taking Eagle Totem
At levels 4 and 8 I'm taking +2 Str and Great Weapon Master, but I'm not sure in which order.

As I've played a session with this DM and observed several more, I know that he uses a battlemap and has a thing for using large maps for combat. Eagle Totem's bonus action dash gives me a fair amount of mobility, which combined with attacking at reach with the Halberd makes for a hit and run Barbarian, which can also set up more opportunities for Polearm Master reaction attacks. I plan on avoiding attacking the center of the enemy formation at all costs, and to focus either on single enemies on the edges, or running past the front line and attacking the mages/archers in the back. Eagle totem while raging also lets me provoke opportunity attacks without caring about the result to a large extent, and using reckless attack every turn while raging is good offensively and gives monsters an incentive to chase me. In the game I've played at this table, with a Barbarian, I was able to consistently do just that. Polearm Master and Eagle Totem both use the bonus action, which gives me a tactical choice between mobility and extra damage I need to make. Great Weapon Master while reckless attacking seems like a great fit, and I don't see how it doesn't work with the bonus action attack with Polearm Master, but I'm going to wait on three levels of attacking with advantage to get a feel on accuracy before I decide to take it at level 4 or not. The Barbarian's greater survivability would be used by me to be able to take greater risks, and to be possibly a lesser burden on the the healers(if any).

Okay, so you've built the barbarian more for mobility and avoiding getting caught up in mobs. It's certainly an interesting build, though I don't know if it's "optimal", or if it fits with the playstyle that I think you're looking for. I don't know if he's a glass cannon, but he's certainly a little different than the barbarians I've seen in 5E so far.

I'd say that since this is likely a one off campaign for you, and because you're concerned about enjoying the game, I wouldn't build for the future levels. I'd build the character you'd most like to play right now. Pick the best options that suit you at level 1. If you find yourself bored with the character, then you're not going to make it to level 4 or 8, so why build with those levels in mind?

It's never bad to plan ahead a bit, but in this case given your concerns, I'd try to make sure you had the most fun character possible now.

Other than that, I am not sure what can help you enjoy the game, really. I'll reiterate my earlier comments about trying something you normally wouldn't and maybe playing the character a little differently, but in a way that still complements what you dig about the game.

Perhaps a martial type with a death wish, who just charges into battle with very little caution. Such a tactic would likely be deemed "suboptimal" but they can be a lot of fun. Or maybe a follower of the God of Luck, who simply does not believe that his God will let him down.

A slight change like that may make up for the lack of mechanical options the game has for you.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

posted in the wrong thread

 

[Umbran]

Surrender, man. It's impossible to discuss on 5e in this forum. Too many fanboys that refuse to see your arguments and live in their magical past of 1-2e.

As if declarations like that are going to make anything better?

We expect you to treat your fellow poster with a modicum of respect, even if you disagree with them. This includes operating under the basic assumption that they actually have decent reasons for holding their opinions - just like you do. Dismissing large swaths of them as "fanboys" without even attempting to ascertain their reasoning is about as far as you can get from showing respect.

So, in the future, please refrain from such approaches to discussion. Thanks.

 

[flametitan]

It's an interesting build, but I think for "optimizing" a mobility based build a monk would be better; it comes with: a means of dashing on a bonus action (though I'd still Multiclass with something else to keep it from eating ki), a means of passively boosting movement speed to make your dashes even faster, and a means of controlling the field by paralyzing key targets at level 5.

That said, at low levels it requires more situational awareness to keep the monk from running out of ki at a key moment than the Barbarian would.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Okay, so you've built the barbarian more for mobility and avoiding getting caught up in mobs. It's certainly an interesting build, though I don't know if it's "optimal", or if it fits with the playstyle that I think you're looking for. I don't know if he's a glass cannon, but he's certainly a little different than the barbarians I've seen in 5E so far.

I'd say that since this is likely a one off campaign for you, and because you're concerned about enjoying the game, I wouldn't build for the future levels. I'd build the character you'd most like to play right now. Pick the best options that suit you at level 1. If you find yourself bored with the character, then you're not going to make it to level 4 or 8, so why build with those levels in mind?

It's never bad to plan ahead a bit, but in this case given your concerns, I'd try to make sure you had the most fun character possible now.

Other than that, I am not sure what can help you enjoy the game, really. I'll reiterate my earlier comments about trying something you normally wouldn't and maybe playing the character a little differently, but in a way that still complements what you dig about the game.

Perhaps a martial type with a death wish, who just charges into battle with very little caution. Such a tactic would likely be deemed "suboptimal" but they can be a lot of fun. Or maybe a follower of the God of Luck, who simply does not believe that his God will let him down.

A slight change like that may make up for the lack of mechanical options the game has for you.

This was actually the second Barbarian I built. The first was a Dwarf Battlerager(from the Sword Coast book), who was more straightforward, though again offensively focused. One of the things I learned in 4E is flexibility=power. It was always my style in 4E to trade a little bit of peak specialization for tactical flexibility and resilience. It was true in 4E, and many people have said that mobility is powerful in 5E, particularly if your DM uses the grid which mine does. My second Barbarian was built for mobility and tactical flexibility, as much as is possible in 5E.