D&D 4E Thoughts on 4E from an "Outsider"...

You can play 3e without minis. But without tactical representations of your character's locations, you will have to rely on DM fiat to adjudicate a lot of combat. Especially AoOs.

Since combat was almost entirely run by DM fiat back in 1e and 2e, I don't think this is a big deal at all, though it does require a shift in thinking that some people aren't comfortable with. Especially those used to playing 3e with minis.

What minis does is put tactical decision making out of the DM hands and puts it into the player's hands. Without minis, players are almost entirely reliant on DM sketches or descriptions to determine their actions.

When I went back to no minis play for a short time, we found that combats and encounters suddenly became much more descriptive. The DM was forced to explain everything in detail and also maintain the positions of the all the characters and enemies in their head. At first it was a little mentally draining, but once our imaginations got back into shape we found that it became easier to do and even simple combats became much more exciting and memorable.

The drawback however came in the excess time spent arguing character positioning, arguing whether an action warranted an AoO, and so on. We found that combat time increased by about 25 to 30% at first. Also some players brought up the concern that the usefulness of feats based on combat positioning was entirely in DM hands. Some players were uncomfortable with choosing a character ability that they had no control over how much they got to use it.

Also its critical that the DM understand their role shift. Without minis, the DM has much more of a responsibility to be a neutral party and not unfairly adjudicate against the PCs. With minis and chess-like tactical positioning, the DM takes a much more adversarial role while controlling the monsters and NPCs the players fight.

As the DM and people got better at describing things, and began to trust the impartiality of the DM, that excess arguing time went down and became just a little bit more than with minis combat. It also had the side benefit of making all the players much more attentive to what was going on even when it wasn't their turn. A player could no longer carry on a side conversation and not pay attention.

In a nutshell, I'm a big fan of removing minis. However, my current group loves them and so I accept them. But you can play without them in 3e and probably even more so in 4e based on what I have heard about monsters being easier to run and so on.
 

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Dragonblade said:
When I went back to no minis play for a short time, we found that combats and encounters suddenly became much more descriptive.

Also its critical that the DM understand their role shift. Without minis, the DM has much more of a responsibility to be a neutral party and not unfairly adjudicate against the PCs. With minis and chess-like tactical positioning, the DM takes a much more adversarial role while controlling the monsters and NPCs the players fight.

As the DM and people got better at describing things, and began to trust the impartiality of the DM, that excess arguing time went down and became just a little bit more than with minis combat. It also had the side benefit of making all the players much more attentive to what was going on even when it wasn't their turn. A player could no longer carry on a side conversation and not pay attention.

That all sounds good to me. It shouldn't be players vs DM, as far as I'm concerned. I'm encouraged by what I'm reading from most of these responses. Maybe I did give up on 3E too soon. Instead, I should have just tried to play my way. Although, like someone posted earlier, it would be nice if Wizards laid out how to do that in the DMG.
 

Playing 3E without mini's and a battlemap is very feasible. You just have to have a DM and players who agree that there will be some judgement calls, and possibly some disagreements, and you have to have a DM that the players all trust to be fair.

The DM has to work a bit harder to communicate the setting and action, and the players have to listen a bit more, but it can work well.

The thing is, there will be some miscommunications ("I thought I was too far away for the orc to attack me!") ("I told you the room was 40 by 40 feet...not 40 by 100") ("I thought we were still in the city!") ....that last quote was from an actual game I ran btw...

But if you can get along with each other through the miscommunications and are willing to replay or ignore some of that, you can have a blast, and I think 4e will be the same way.
 

Add my voice to the chorus saying that you don't *need* a battlemat to play 3E or, likely, 4E. They come in handy to precisely measure out range and movement, but they're not critical. You could get away with using minis, and everyone just sort of agreeing on how far someone can move, whether the wizard's Fireball can get all the orcs or miss a few, and so on. It's imprecise, but that sounds like that's what you want. If I'm hearing you correctly, 3E's focus on precision is killing your fun.
 

I remember back when we just used "minis" (dice, usually) to show marching order.

I do wish that mini play wasn't the assumed form of play, however. Frankly, it's more expensive to do it that way and those of us who aren't miniature fans will use substitutes anyway if we're forced to use minis at all.
 

"If I'm hearing you correctly, 3E's focus on precision is killing your fun."

Yeah, that about sums it up. Back in the day, if I was unsure about location or something, I just remember asking the DM about the situation and him describing it to me. He wasn't playing against us. He'd be honest about how he perceived the situation and we went with it. Sure, there were brief disagreements here and there, but he was the DM, and what he said was gospel. When we'd argue, I realized that I had 3 options: Quit, Argue for another 1/2 hour, or just go with it and keep playing. That was usually a pretty easy decision.
 

My group just uses dice in place of minis and we use a grid map.
Makes the game a lot easier as everyone visualizes the same thing (more so than just DM description anyway).

Anyway...
Grossout, the way in which you describe your glory days of 2e it does not sound like 4e will be right for you. You want a more rules light, less tactical game, cause by your description of your 2e experience you probably aren't much of a fan of feats, grapple, trip, disarm etc either.

But who knows? Be impossible to tell if 4e is the game for you till we have a ton more information.
 

"Anyway...
Grossout, the way in which you describe your glory days of 2e it does not sound like 3e or 4e will be right for you. You want a more rules light, less tactical game, cause by your description of your 2e experience you probably aren't much of a fan of feats, grapple, trip, disarm etc either."

You may be right. I'd definitely like a less tactical game, at least as far as movement in battle is concerned. But I want to like 4E so badly! I just hope (probably in vain) that there are stated options in the guides for people like me.
 

Dragonblade said:
When I went back to no minis play for a short time...The drawback however came in the excess time spent arguing character positioning, arguing whether an action warranted an AoO, and so on. We found that combat time increased by about 25 to 30% at first. Also some players brought up the concern that the usefulness of feats based on combat positioning was entirely in DM hands. Some players were uncomfortable with choosing a character ability that they had no control over how much they got to use it.

See, I found the experience to be exactly the opposite. 3E combat with minis took forever and once I finally decided to sitch them and just use a whiteboard to draw things out "not to scale" and just adjudicate ("I want to get past that ogre and take out the lich." 'Ain't gonna happen. he's positioned so he can cover the whole passage. Do you want to take the AoO?") the game ran really fast. Now, what's wierd is that when I went back to minis (different group, with one player that wouldn't play without them) using minis sped up. I learned, somewhere in there without meaning to, to "stop worry and love" minis. One of the things that really did it was making players make snap, middle of combat decisions -- no more counting squares 3 or 4 times to get the most out of movement. Pick up your mini and move it, once square at a time, until you want to stop or run out of movement. You have 10 seconds. No takebacks. If miss and AoO because I am not paying attention, so be it -- the orc was too busy not getting hit by the paladin while the rogue snuck by. if you miss one, also so be it -- your rogue was obviosuly focused on where he was going instead of where he was.

The other thing about minis that is kind of a tangent: creating adventures was always hard with minis because I only had so many and there were creatures or whatever I wanted use, but had no minis for. After going mini-less, I realized it didn't matter at all. Coins would do. it made adventure design much easier and more organic than it had been during my "must have the right mini" phase.

As to 4E: expect more of the same.
 


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