Thoughts on Book of the Righteous

[coyote6]

Point is, I think there can be significant differences between the good warrior set out in BotR and neutral and evil versions.

Me, I think it would be possible to have neutral versions of holy warriors (similar to the "good priest of an evil god" bit you mentioned). I envisage a character that's basically good, but is a bit flawed -- just a bit too self-righteous, not quite compassionate or merciful enough, or simply a bit too much of a SOB to be of "Good" alignment.

As to the BotR -- I'm actually not all that fond of the cosmology of GR's fiend books (and Chris's Guide to Hell) -- the Asmodeous-as-supergod thing (along with a couple of other bits) don't sit right for me, for some reason.

But I'm now trying to figure out how to reconcile the Book's gods, cosmology, & history with that of the homebrew world I've been working on. I've already decided I'll probably change some things in the setting.

Very good stuff.

 

[Psion]

Well, I got it today. Wow. The layout is extremely nice and the rules execution looks pretty slick. I think a lot of people out there are going to like the holy warriors. The "adaptation notes" to fit a campaign are very nice. Definite "5" material.

Weaknesses? Not many, and those that exist can be worked around. The default assumption is that there are no "racial" gods which is out of kilter with the majority of D&D settings. Gods are willful beings and it makes perfect sense to me that they would have special "chosen" races. Further, if you just need parts of a pantheon, some deities are tightly enough bound that you would have to do some extra work to use them alone.

That said, I already have some ideas how I am going to use the deities in my game. The campaign occurs on a world that is new to the major human race. Further, I have deities in "generations". Many of the deities of the BotR pantheon could be "old deities", and many of my handmade deities will slide in as younger more vital deities.

Just a quick note for anyone who needs help adapting deities, I have a concept that I find useful when doing this sort of thing. In my game, I assume that the body of deities are fairly wide. But at the same thing, I don't want there to be millions of deities. There are multiple pantheons, but they are overlapping and some deities may take part in multiple pantheons. Deities may express themselves with one of two means:

Guises: A guise is merely a different name for a same deity. The deity might have a different cultural identity and myths surrounding him/her, but the essential facets of the deity are unchanged.

Aspects: Sometimes a divine concept or role transcends a single divine entity, and a deity creates (voluntarily or otherwise) an aspect which might have some significant differences from the "prime" divinity.

By assuming a variety of guises and aspects, I leave room for the possibility that some deities in different cultural pantheons are the same, yet some may be different.

 

[AaronLoeb]

As to the BotR -- I'm actually not all that fond of the cosmology of GR's fiend books (and Chris's Guide to Hell) -- the Asmodeous-as-supergod thing (along with a couple of other bits) don't sit right for me, for some reason.

Here's the secret to making it aaaaalll good (or at least the cunning plan Chris and I dreamed up for folks who don't like the supremely-powered Asmodeus thang). I intend to write up a myth (or group of myths) to this effect for those who want them and put them up on Tree of Life, but I'm happy to bounce the idea around first:

It's all a lie.

Kador was cast down into Hell and is still there, frozen in his lake of ice. Asmodeus is the greatest liar in hell (which certainly doesn't require super-godlike status) and has simply taken on his mantle and appearance. He's lied to the gods, the world, his followers, even most of Hell believes he and Kador are one and the same. But it just ain't so. Asmodeus is just a really, really good liar (as the lord of Hell should be).

In some sense, I like this scenario as it could be a real mind-blower for players, bad guys, a campaign, etc...

Anyway, food for thought. Glad to hear you're enjoying the book!

AJL

 

[Psion]

Here's the secret to making it aaaaalll good
(...)
It's all a lie.

Works for me.

 

[Pramas]

As to the BotR -- I'm actually not all that fond of the cosmology of GR's fiend books (and Chris's Guide to Hell) -- the Asmodeous-as-supergod thing (along with a couple of other bits) don't sit right for me, for some reason.

Legions of Hell is deliberately ambiguous on the true nature of Asmodeus. FYI.

 

[coyote6]

Legions of Hell is deliberately ambiguous on the true nature of Asmodeus. FYI.

Oh, I know, and appreciate that fact. I phrased things poorly. My point was that, even despite my distaste for the basic idea, the BotR has me considering using the idea. Though Aaron's "it's all a lie" idea is also intriguing.

 

[hellbender]

Just bought the book yesterday and wanted to take some time to read through it. The book already has me taking notes for my homebrew and expanding on the campaign I just kicked off.

This book is well worth the price and I am more than happy to add it to my collection. After I read through it more thoroughly and get deeper into this tome, I hope to add to the Tree of Life as well, which is an amazing web enhancement. I am a regular purchaser of Green Ronin products and products like this really make the company shine. I hope to see the Tree of Life grow as more people get this book and add to the mythology presented in the book.

hellbender (VERY satisfied customer)

 

[The Serge]

Asmodeus SHOULD be a god.

While I don't know precisely what Pramas, Loeb, and the other writers for Green Ronin have in mind for the "truth" regarding their versions of Asmodeus and the other planar lords, I think it's perfectly sensible for Asmodeus and similar beings to be gods.

While I didn't necessarily care for everything in A Guide to Hell (e.g. the other Lords were too weak for my tastes), I did like the fact that Asmodeus was treated in a manner that makes sense given the fact that he does control an entire plane (while most gods have trouble running a single planet). Ideally, each Lawful plane should have supreme being as its leader, and there should be beings out there that can rival gods in power while not being gods.

"The Lie" could still work, however. If Asmodeus is lying, he could still be a god-like power. He could be a reflection of Kandor. He could be an avatar (that's what Asmodeus is IMC, a "super-avatar" of a greater power that's achieved a measure of... independence). In many cases, a Lie brings a great deal of power, and perhaps the lying has allowed him to become a god.

But, I don't think it's necessary to back away from Asmodeus as a god.

 

[AaronLoeb]

Re: Asmodeus SHOULD be a god.

While I don't know precisely what Pramas, Loeb, and the other writers for Green Ronin have in mind for the "truth" regarding their versions of Asmodeus and the other planar lords, I think it's perfectly sensible for Asmodeus and similar beings to be gods.

While I didn't necessarily care for everything in A Guide to Hell (e.g. the other Lords were too weak for my tastes), I did like the fact that Asmodeus was treated in a manner that makes sense given the fact that he does control an entire plane (while most gods have trouble running a single planet). Ideally, each Lawful plane should have supreme being as its leader, and there should be beings out there that can rival gods in power while not being gods.

"The Lie" could still work, however. If Asmodeus is lying, he could still be a god-like power. He could be a reflection of Kandor. He could be an avatar (that's what Asmodeus is IMC, a "super-avatar" of a greater power that's achieved a measure of... independence). In many cases, a Lie brings a great deal of power, and perhaps the lying has allowed him to become a god.

But, I don't think it's necessary to back away from Asmodeus as a god.

Well, for BotR, I had in mind that Asmodeus is actually Kador, the god of fire and the first being brought to life by the creator of the universe. However, I am also aware that a lot of people really want the fiends to just be fiends, not gods. Thus the "big lie" theory was born. I'm hatching the Tree of Life addition on it right now, which should provide some fun ways to hint at the "big lie" which may, in and of itself, be a big lie (Moooo-ha-ha-ha)... I agree with your assessment about lies, btw, and think it could make for some very neat campaign twists.

I'm curious, how do most people weigh in on the issue of fiends? Do you see the archfiends (Baal, Baphomet, etc.) as god-like in power, or would you like all of them to be statted and killable, including Asmodeus? When you use campaign-spanning fiend arch-nemeses, do you go for lords of hell or the abyss, or lower-level dukes, etc. How often do you have a game culminating in the killing of a major universe power?

AJL

 

[Olive]

not wanting to derail the thread...

hey justa quicky: i have no problem with the whole asmodeus as god thing, but what i don't like about the guide to hell etc cosmology is the emphasis on HEAVEN vs HELL is two lawful planes fighting each other... i know that mythology always talks about heaven vs hell, but it just doesn't work when hell is LE adn heaven is LG... why don' the archons mobilise vs the abyss? anyway, just my 2c