Thoughts on Monster 'Ranks'

[Tequila Sunrise]

I really like 4e's monster 'ranks': minion, normal, elite and solo. I like them so much in fact that I've created a new rank in between minion and normal, the goon rank. I like how interesting encounters can be made by using monsters of different ranks. And in theory, I like the option I have of re-ranking a monster of a certain level in order to make it an appropriate challenge for higher or lower level parties. For example if my 9th level party meets the young black dragon that they drove off as a 4th level party, I can modify the same dragon into a 9th level elite and throw in a few other monsters.

It sounds great, but as a player I've found it somewhat...jarring is the best word I can think of at the moment, to fight a monsters whose 'rank' has no consistent relationship to its type. For example in the last session in which I played as a goliath warden, we had one fight that involved an undead elite, a couple of undead normals and a few undead minions. All were corporeal and human. The DM described them such that their ranks were clear to us; the minions were mindless rotting shamblers while the elite was well preserved and smart. I can't clearly describe what my problem is; but monsters of similar type but of different ranks tend to jar me out of my suspension of disbelief. I think part of what maintains dragons' iconic status in 4e is the fact that their type [dragon] has a consistent relationship with their rank [solo].

Or maybe I've just spent too much time behind the DM screen, or maybe my DMs should not make it clear who's a minion and who's a solo. What do you think?

 

[Cadfan]

I don't have a problem with it if its explained how or why one monster is better or worse than another. I'd have zero problems with the example you gave- it wouldn't register as any different from meeting a bunch of human thugs, one of whom was higher level than the rest.

 

[Rechan]

I don't have a problem with it if its explained how or why one monster is better or worse than another. I'd have zero problems with the example you gave- it wouldn't register as any different from meeting a bunch of human thugs, one of whom was higher level than the rest.

Ditto.

Or for that matter, meeting some NPCs and a PC is in the middle of them. Given that PCs are elite in their own right.

 

[Allenchan]

How is this different from a fight in 3.x with some zombie commoners (CR 1/2), a few Plague Walkers (CR 3), and a Mummy (CR 5)? I dont think I fully understand why it breaks your suspension of disbelief.

 

[Rechan]

So can you accept that the same type of monster may fill different Roles (a controller and a brute and a lurker)?

So can you accept that there are different kinds of corporeal undead? Zombie vs. Wight vs. Ghoul?

So can you accept that there are different levels of the same kind of monster? For instance, a common Skeleton vs. a Skeletal Warrior?

If you can accept both of these, then why is it hard to accept a different Rank? If you can accept something as arbitrary and abstract as Level, then why is Rank a problem?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

How is this different from a fight in 3.x with some zombie commoners (CR 1/2), a few Plague Walkers (CR 3), and a Mummy (CR 5)? I dont think I fully understand why it breaks your suspension of disbelief.

I don't think I do either.

So can you accept that the same type of monster may fill different Roles (a controller and a brute and a lurker)?

So can you accept that there are different kinds of corporeal undead? Zombie vs. Wight vs. Ghoul?

So can you accept that there are different levels of the same kind of monster? For instance, a common Skeleton vs. a Skeletal Warrior?

If you can accept both of these, then why is it hard to accept a different Rank? If you can accept something as arbitrary and abstract as Level, then why is Rank a problem?

I think rank stands out more because it's much more obvious, and often unexplained. The difference between one level and the next, and even between one level and the next few, is mostly just X number of bonuses. And levels have a simple default explanation: experience. But ranks are different: a solo takes significantly longer to kill and deals significantly more damage than an elite, which is significantly tougher than a normal, etc. I guess the general explanation of different ranks is experience also, but that jars me a bit: I might easily accept that explanation in a game without levels but having two scales to reflect experience in D&D...I dunno, am I making any sense?

Ditto.

Or for that matter, meeting some NPCs and a PC is in the middle of them. Given that PCs are elite in their own right.

I also have issues with the human race & co. containing minions, NPCs and PCs. That's why I like settings like Exalted, because they provide a very clear explanation of different ranks within the same race. In campaigns without a clear explanation, I try not to think about.