Thoughts On The Challenge Rating System

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Can anyone post links to the old threads where this Upper Krust's system is hashed out and discussed? I'd be very interested in reading them all.

 

[Nail]

They are huge...and often bumped in the house rule forum.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Can anyone post links to the old threads where this Upper Krust's system is hashed out and discussed? I'd be very interested in reading them all.

This post gives all the main (and most of the secondary) threads relating to UK's system. Happy reading!

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2269320

 

[Raelcreve]

Psions and Tarrasques and Balors, OH MY!

There are multiple problems inherent in the system. One of the biggest is that too many people see the rules as absolutes, instead of guidelines. Pulling a creature out of the book by CR rating alone is not enough to prepare for an adventure as a DM. As Eric A. can attest, my encounters tend to be much more difficult than the CR would suggest. I'm a tough DM, and average about 1 PC death per play session; we'll not talk about friendly fire here. I'm also a generous DM and award XP appropriately. But a lucky strike or smart play from a PC can end almost any encounter quickly. Even when I build very difficult encounters, I always leave a way out, either to victory or to retreat. Whether the players find it, well, that's a different story.

This is how I personally do it:

1) KNOW YOUR PARTY! If you don't do this, the rest is pointless.

2) Pick a monster/creature/opponent because it fits the local, story, or scene, not because of it's CR rating. Any creature can be made weaker or stronger...enough to challenge any party.

3) Get to KNOW monsters and their abilities.
a) Some monsters have stupidly high CRs, because of one ability. What happens when you strip that ability, or change it to something less lethal? What's a Famine Spirit without its Vorpal Bite?
b) Some monsters have stupidly low CRs, because the DMG doesn't take into account its will to live (among other things). 20 orc warriors with 4 sergeants and one captain, armed with short bows, short spears and tower shields and fighting in turtles can give playes nightmares for weeks.

4) Get to know what abilities that your PCs have trouble with, and take advantage of it. In the same vein, throw some freebies at them to build their confidence.

5) It's important to understand that most players stumble on to monsters (and not the other way around). Most beasties will be prepared for adventurers. In fact, it's probably a favorite menu item! Oooh, roast wizard, rogue on a spit, boiled fighter, and cleric on the half shell, yummy! As the DM you should be playing the monsters as if they were your PCs (which in fact, they are).

6) Smart monsters retreat. In fact, the smarter the beastie, the more likely it will know it's outmatched, use its most lethal and/or favorite power to attempt to damage/kill a PC or two, and retreat to the hills. They may regroup, get reinforcements, buff themselves up, set up an ambush, etc. Very few intelligent creatures will fight to the death, unless they are backed into a corner, magically bound to do so, or protecting something (like a nest or young).

7) Monster use their magic items. Unless it's biologically impossible, less effective than it's natural weaponry, or the creature is not intelligent, make the players EARN their treasure. Nothing hurts so bad, is so valued, or brings bigger smiles, than pulling out the half used wand of fireballs that you pried from the dead Raksasha's hand...the one it used on you in its 20x20 bedroom (which it was immune to).

Remember, it's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

DMing is an art, not a science. Don't try to turn it into one, or you'll suck all the fun out of the game. In fact, you'll probably feel like you're playing EverCrack.

 

[azmodean]

Our party of five 10th lvl guys fought an Elder Earth Elemental (CR 11) and we had a hell of a time defeating it.

[SNIP details of fight]

That was one encounter that cost us 80% of our resources and was potentially lethal for multiple party members, just because of our particular party composition.

DM's should take always take such things into consideration.

I've always had problems with this particular sentiment. I think the players should be the ones taking such things into consideration. If a party is specialized toward fighting creatures with discernable anatomies (crit buffing, sneak attacks, etc...) they should understand that they will have problems with encounters with non-crittable creatures and plan accordingly, with equipment and/or tactics which will help them in that area. I have never understood the mindset that says that given a party with a set of arbitrarily chosen abilities, it is the DM's responsibility to ensure that the encounters aren't too hard. IMO it is the very core conept of a rpg that the characters will need to interact with their environment and change themselves in order to overcome challenges as opposed to the opposite happening. (the DM adjusting encounters so that the Pcs can handle them)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Cheiromancer matey!

I guess what I am worrying about is the equivocation in the expression "13.333 moderate encounters yields enough experience points for participating characters to advance one level."

Is that 13.333 EL-2 encounters, or 13.333 EL-4 encounters?

Technically thats up to the DM. I would have said EL -4 by default, but some people may want slower advancement. The system is flexible enough to support either methods.

 

[S'mon]

Technically thats up to the DM. I would have said EL -4 by default, but some people may want slower advancement. The system is flexible enough to support either methods.

(Tried to post earlier but my work PC doesn't like me wasting time on ENW)
I think the default XP rate in 3e is already too high, and this would increase it further. In fact using this would be a good opportunity to change the default award from 300xLevel to 100xLevel, since it would scale back up to around 2/3 current standard XP.

Re CRs, as a GM who usually runs published scenarios and doesn't have time to go over all the stat blocks I'm of the opinion that, to coin a phrase, you go to the table with the CRs you have, not the CRs you would wish to have. It might be nice to convert to the U_K system but it requires several extra steps in XP calculation and for now I'm sticking with XP based off CR. WoTC CRs are far from perfect, but they appear to do 1 thing quite well, which is provide a monster that is a challenging encounter for a PC group of level equal to the CR. They don't work for multiple creatures though. What Craig has said fits my own suspicion that 3e's designers never thought much about the difference between

(1) 4 PCs fighting monster X then monster Y, and
(2) 4 PCs fighting monster X + monster Y at the same time.

In the first case, if the monster X is as tough as 2 PCs, it deals 50% as much damage as the group and lasts 50% as long, so it will inflict about 25% resource loss on the group. Incidentally if the monster is a melee brute that 25% may be all the hps of 1 PC, so these are definitely dangerous encounters. If monster Y is the same CR as X the party can beat both having lost 50% resources.

In the second case, fighting the same monsters at once, the monsters together dish out 100% as much damage as the PCs and together last 100% as long, so on average will inflict 100% resource loss - TPK. In fact because the PC group's offensive power drops with 1/4 casualties while the monsters need 1/2 casualties before they lose attacks, the imbalance is even greater. Now, area effect spells can alter the calculation, but the fact remains that 2 creatures at once, both able to attack, is far more dangerous than 2 creatures encountered consecutively.

 

[Cheiromancer]

S'mon,

Generally simultaneous encounters are deadlier than sequential ones, but not always. Whether using area of effect spells, cleave, whirlwind attack, economical use of buffs, etc., it is sometimes to the party's advantage to take down all their enemies at once.

I would be in favor of changing the xp formula. My CHI-RHO formula would be more elegant with 100 xp than with 300.

Chi(X) = (x₁² + x₂² + x₃² + ... + x_m²) * 300
Rho(P) = (p₁² + p₂² + p₃² + ... + p_n²)
xp(k) = Chi(X) / Rho(P) * p_k

x_n is the CR of the nth monster in the encounter X, and p_k is the CR (=ECL) of the kth player in the party P. xp(k) is the experience that character gets from the encounter.

 

[boredgremlin]

There are multiple problems inherent in the system. One of the biggest is that too many people see the rules as absolutes, instead of guidelines. Pulling a creature out of the book by CR rating alone is not enough to prepare for an adventure as a DM. As Eric A. can attest, my encounters tend to be much more difficult than the CR would suggest. I'm a tough DM, and average about 1 PC death per play session; we'll not talk about friendly fire here. I'm also a generous DM and award XP appropriately. But a lucky strike or smart play from a PC can end almost any encounter quickly. Even when I build very difficult encounters, I always leave a way out, either to victory or to retreat. Whether the players find it, well, that's a different story.

This is how I personally do it:

1) KNOW YOUR PARTY! If you don't do this, the rest is pointless.

2) Pick a monster/creature/opponent because it fits the local, story, or scene, not because of it's CR rating. Any creature can be made weaker or stronger...enough to challenge any party.

3) Get to KNOW monsters and their abilities.
a) Some monsters have stupidly high CRs, because of one ability. What happens when you strip that ability, or change it to something less lethal? What's a Famine Spirit without its Vorpal Bite?
b) Some monsters have stupidly low CRs, because the DMG doesn't take into account its will to live (among other things). 20 orc warriors with 4 sergeants and one captain, armed with short bows, short spears and tower shields and fighting in turtles can give playes nightmares for weeks.

4) Get to know what abilities that your PCs have trouble with, and take advantage of it. In the same vein, throw some freebies at them to build their confidence.

5) It's important to understand that most players stumble on to monsters (and not the other way around). Most beasties will be prepared for adventurers. In fact, it's probably a favorite menu item! Oooh, roast wizard, rogue on a spit, boiled fighter, and cleric on the half shell, yummy! As the DM you should be playing the monsters as if they were your PCs (which in fact, they are).

6) Smart monsters retreat. In fact, the smarter the beastie, the more likely it will know it's outmatched, use its most lethal and/or favorite power to attempt to damage/kill a PC or two, and retreat to the hills. They may regroup, get reinforcements, buff themselves up, set up an ambush, etc. Very few intelligent creatures will fight to the death, unless they are backed into a corner, magically bound to do so, or protecting something (like a nest or young).

7) Monster use their magic items. Unless it's biologically impossible, less effective than it's natural weaponry, or the creature is not intelligent, make the players EARN their treasure. Nothing hurts so bad, is so valued, or brings bigger smiles, than pulling out the half used wand of fireballs that you pried from the dead Raksasha's hand...the one it used on you in its 20x20 bedroom (which it was immune to).

Remember, it's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

DMing is an art, not a science. Don't try to turn it into one, or you'll suck all the fun out of the game. In fact, you'll probably feel like you're playing EverCrack.

Well said. Couldnt agree more.

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

Err wrong to what you said. 20% of resources is never defined in the DMG, it could be what you said, or it could be one player takes the dirt nap while everyone else is realtively unscathed. An encounter that is +2 cr over the parties Average level is considered twice as difficult as an encounter with a CR value equal to party level.

. . . I remember the time my 14th (or was it 15th) level party battled the Balor. there were 5 of us +1 npc. We defeated it before the first round of combat ended. that was awesome. needless to say we leveled.+